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Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:30 pm to LookSquirrel
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:30 pm to LookSquirrel
This is TL:DR and stream of consciousness interrupted by multiple phone calls and I don't have the impetus to proof much less try to polish a turd this afternoon, take it for what it is and isn't.
I have no choice but to be brief with this but I will try to get my major points down.
In total, this sounds like a thesis worked backward from a conclusion and I find it fundamentally flawed but nevertheless it appears to flow somewhat logically from beginning to end.
I feel the major point is that Russia's doctrine is designed around total war with a peer/near-peer. OK, the logic flows, however:
When was the last time Russia fought a near-peer? You are telling me by well reasoned choice they decided to build a low tech military to fight a litany of lower tier militaries even though the losses would inevitably be much higher for them compared to a high tech and highly trained army AND this has nothing to do with their low value on the live of the soldiers?
A short note about the US ATGMs vs weapons like the RPG 28 and 32. He noted the low proper engagement numbers. First, let's get an inconvenient truth out of the way: grunts ain't real good at killing shite. Lots of steel downrange per kill, it is what it is. What is not discussed, and in fairness he likely did not have the numbers, is the percentage of proper engagements with RPG 28/32 in similar conditions. How often do you think the unguided RPG 28 hits home in combat conditions? It ain't gonna be 19% unless they are at very close range. Then how effective will it be against a modern MBT.
Sure there are situations where I would prefer an RPG 28/32 or even a M72 to a high tech weapon like the Javalin but at any reasonable standoff against a modern tank with the chance to even just peruse an FM beforehand I will take the Javelin.
The last point is about the concept Russia is better prepared for total war. I don't buy it. The closest thing we have had to total war on this planet in the last 50+ years was Desert Storm. One of the biggest takeaways was the utter devastation of air superiority/supremacy. Russia can't achieve this against Ukraine much less a fighting force like the USAF and Navy. They still don't have it after a year, so much for the massive arsenal of Russia overcoming its tech shortage.
Also the idea Russian doctrine makers don't see high tech weapons as important is not accurate. Look at their grand plans with the Su-57 and the T-14. Don't tell me they don't want these in the fight... they just can't build them.
In the end, I see the blog as an artfully crafted excuse for why Russia does not have a modern military and I don't buy the "they are just designed for total war" argument. As it stands they would never last long enough to crank up to "total war". I also would not bet on the Russian industrial machine outproducing the US industrial machine even if nationalization might give them an advantage.
quote:
From Simplicius The Thinker
An exploration of how Russia's warfighting doctrine differs from the West.
I have no choice but to be brief with this but I will try to get my major points down.
In total, this sounds like a thesis worked backward from a conclusion and I find it fundamentally flawed but nevertheless it appears to flow somewhat logically from beginning to end.
I feel the major point is that Russia's doctrine is designed around total war with a peer/near-peer. OK, the logic flows, however:
When was the last time Russia fought a near-peer? You are telling me by well reasoned choice they decided to build a low tech military to fight a litany of lower tier militaries even though the losses would inevitably be much higher for them compared to a high tech and highly trained army AND this has nothing to do with their low value on the live of the soldiers?
A short note about the US ATGMs vs weapons like the RPG 28 and 32. He noted the low proper engagement numbers. First, let's get an inconvenient truth out of the way: grunts ain't real good at killing shite. Lots of steel downrange per kill, it is what it is. What is not discussed, and in fairness he likely did not have the numbers, is the percentage of proper engagements with RPG 28/32 in similar conditions. How often do you think the unguided RPG 28 hits home in combat conditions? It ain't gonna be 19% unless they are at very close range. Then how effective will it be against a modern MBT.
Sure there are situations where I would prefer an RPG 28/32 or even a M72 to a high tech weapon like the Javalin but at any reasonable standoff against a modern tank with the chance to even just peruse an FM beforehand I will take the Javelin.
The last point is about the concept Russia is better prepared for total war. I don't buy it. The closest thing we have had to total war on this planet in the last 50+ years was Desert Storm. One of the biggest takeaways was the utter devastation of air superiority/supremacy. Russia can't achieve this against Ukraine much less a fighting force like the USAF and Navy. They still don't have it after a year, so much for the massive arsenal of Russia overcoming its tech shortage.
Also the idea Russian doctrine makers don't see high tech weapons as important is not accurate. Look at their grand plans with the Su-57 and the T-14. Don't tell me they don't want these in the fight... they just can't build them.
In the end, I see the blog as an artfully crafted excuse for why Russia does not have a modern military and I don't buy the "they are just designed for total war" argument. As it stands they would never last long enough to crank up to "total war". I also would not bet on the Russian industrial machine outproducing the US industrial machine even if nationalization might give them an advantage.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:31 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
We overthrew Ukraine's govt
Nope, but even prior to the change in Ukraine it was obvious they wanted in NATO and the EU.
quote:
When we overthrow Finland, you have a fair point
The Finns are very independent. The fact they want in NATO is because of Russia. The desire to be under the NATO blankets Europe with a few exceptions, why? Russia.
quote:
But pretending like we are saving
Ukraine.. c'mon man
We have helped Ukraine stop Russia and then push them back. That’s evident.
What isn’t evident is the final outcome.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:32 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
quote: NO, No we didn't.... A dying perspective btw. Folks have come around to the truth.
We provoked Russia to the extend that we interfered with their imperial/ expansionist ambitions, yes.
Kind of like Japan back in the day..
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:35 pm to RogerTheShrubber
We did not overthrow the Ukrainian government. We supported the Ukrainian populace forcing out a Russian puppet/strongman. Even if you wanted to erroneously call that overthrowing their government the have been new elections since then and the Ukrainians overwhelmingly support the current regime.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:36 pm to Obtuse1
Hypothetically this is true, is this a strategically sound move for Ukraine? Diverts forces to do this, but I haven’t seen anything changing the around 8K Russian troops in Transinistra so proportionately it shouldn’t take much from Ukrainian forces to achieve this and secure their arse end flank from a Russian buildup.
Just curious what some of the vets and more knowledgeable think of this possibility for each side. I sort of get why each side would chose to move on Transinistra and/or Moldova as a whole, just curious if some of you guys think it’s worth it tactically. Again, hypothetical. I shared because on of our regular accounts finally commented on it.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:38 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Look at the geographic area Russia controls in Ukraine right now and compare it to the geographic area of the Baltics
While I agree with you're overall premise, this part doesn't jive well. The 2014 capture of Crimera and the donbas region is the primary reason for the territory taken to date. Most everything else was shock and awe with some treason mixed in. I personally don't think the Baltics would be as easy to roll on. If I'm proven wrong on that (which God help us if Russia actually attacks a NATO country and invokes article V) I wouldn't be shocked its my mostly uneducated analysis of the current lay of the land.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:41 pm to OGtigerfan87
quote:
We did not overthrow the Ukrainian government
If you actually listen to Us bureaucrats and politicians, we absolutely did. We've been stirring up discontent there since the split.
quote:
But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavory regimes.
From 2004
LINK
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:43 pm to OGtigerfan87
quote:
We did not overthrow the Ukrainian government.
Naive view, you should do more research before throwing your opinion out there.
quote:
We supported the Ukrainian populace forcing out a Russian puppet/strongman.
Who won an election.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:46 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Cadets at the Moscow Police College
quote:
They had to call the police to be released
Dont know why but this made me
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:47 pm to TigerOnTheMountain
quote:
western expansion violating multiple NATO-Russia agreement
Could you link any agreements? Because all that exists is someone might have verbally said something but there is no agreement on NATO expansion.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:50 pm to REG861
quote:
that we interfered with their imperial/ expansionist ambitions, yes.
I let out an audible laugh on this one, nurses here were amused.
We've been fricking up Ukraine's shite some they split from the Soviet Union.
We've done them no favors I this endeavor to spread out tainted Democracy. We're doing great things for population control though.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:50 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Says one reporter who spent time at a USSR faculty camp.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:53 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
. Ukraine has belonged to the US since we overthrew their government.
But but but no one including you knows what's going on so clearly that's just a massively uniformed opinion
This post was edited on 2/22/23 at 1:54 pm
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:55 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
But we did provoke Russia.
But again no one including you knows what is going on so how can you know this
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:55 pm to DabosDynasty
quote:
Hypothetically this is true, is this a strategically sound move for Ukraine?
Hypothetically, I'll believe it when I see it.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:56 pm to StormyMcMan
quote:
But but but no one including you knows what's going on
But some of us who can actually read know what has happened. It's called history.
And that is we have tried to control Ukraine since they gained independence.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 1:58 pm to StormyMcMan
quote:
Could you link any agreements?
There are no treaties or written agreements, but it's not as if it's disputed we promised this verbally to Gorbachev DIRECTLY:
quote:
We understand that not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction. We believe that consultations and discussions with
NSA published archive and quote
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16117-document-06-record-conversation-between
Posted on 2/22/23 at 2:00 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
We've been fricking up Ukraine's shite some they split from the Soviet Union.
How so? US companies were about to develop Ukraine's enourmous tight shale natural gas potential when Russia invaded in 2014. Looks like Russia is the one doing all of that. Put down the shrooms dude. You are as paranoid as Alex Jones.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 2:02 pm to RogerTheShrubber
What a shame to see Roger believe what he is told by someone in the media
Posted on 2/22/23 at 2:03 pm to CitizenK
quote:
How so
They sure could use a few nukes right now for deterrent purposes.
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