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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 12/7/22 at 3:38 pm to
Posted by Tigeralum2008
Yankees Fan
Member since Apr 2012
17717 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 3:38 pm to
Rumors of a new Peace Proposal brokered by Western Europe

1. Russia leaves all Ukrainian territory
2. 100 KM security zone around the borders of Belarus, RU, UKR patrolled by a coalition of 6 nations
3. NATO Membership tabled for 7 years
4. Crimea would become neutral
5. RU Navy leaves Black Sea
This post was edited on 12/7/22 at 3:38 pm
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42653 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 3:40 pm to
Seems fair to me
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
11880 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 3:44 pm to
How Crimea becomes neutral seems easier said than done. What does this mean? UN Peacekeepers?
Posted by BayouBlitz
Member since Aug 2007
18126 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 3:45 pm to
No way Putin agrees to that.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20975 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 3:48 pm to
quote:

How Crimea becomes neutral seems easier said than done. What does this mean? UN Peacekeepers?



I mean, it could just be made an independent country -- part of neither Russia nor Ukraine.

But, yeah, no way that Putin agrees to that anytime soon. He still thinks that he's going to accumulate resources and take more Ukrainian territory in a spring offensive, and that Western support for Ukraine will decline.
This post was edited on 12/7/22 at 3:51 pm
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
15773 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 3:57 pm to
quote:

1. Russia leaves all Ukrainian territory
2. 100 KM security zone around the borders of Belarus, RU, UKR patrolled by a coalition of 6 nations
3. NATO Membership tabled for 7 years
4. Crimea would become neutral
5. RU Navy leaves Black Sea


The most important for Russia is 4 & 5. They will never willingly give those two up even if the Kremlin is nuked
Posted by WeeWee
Member since Aug 2012
45582 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 4:08 pm to
quote:

Russia leaves all Ukrainian territory


Does that include the Luhansk, Donetsk, Zap, and Kherson oblasts which Russia considers to be Russian territory?

quote:

Crimea would become neutral


So basically Crimea becomes an independent nation?

quote:

RU Navy leaves Black Sea


Russia will never agree to that.
Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
150170 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 6:46 pm to
quote:

4. Crimea would become neutral

what does this mean
Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
150170 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 6:56 pm to
meanwhile on the poliboard
quote:

Yeah, about that:
"The Pentagon under the Biden administration has rolled out a revised Nuclear Posture Review (NPR), and it allows for nuclear responses to non-nuclear events.
It’s not MAGA extremist right-wingers who are noting this with alarm, it’s liberal and hard-left peaceniks.
The Union of Concerned Scientists, for example, describes the Biden nuclear policy changes as adding up to “a terrifying document.”
The more diplomatic Federation of American Scientists says the revised Biden nuclear policy is “a disappointment from a risk-reduction perspective.”"

Zelensky went along with the US and NATO to thwart the Budapest Memorandum (Ukraine gave up nukes for assurances of security, in 1994) and create a threat as perceived by Russia. Rather than declare neutrality and give any assurances there was no threat, Zelensky persisted, for example in attacking fellow Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine, who feel more Russian than Ukrainian. In 2016 Lindsey Graham, McCain, and Amy Klobuchar went to Ukraine to continue instigating this affair with Russia. Graham said, "your fight is our fight." This whole affair is due to the US and NATO.

If you want peace in Ukraine, all that's required is for the US to butt out. They'll negotiate a peace immediately.

And Zelensky worked to create a situation whereby NATO was going to move in and be right on Russia's border. When Russia said they would have to deal with this threat, Zelensky, at the Munich Security Conference, said he felt compelled to reject the Budapest Memorandum, meaning Ukraine would get nukes for use against Russia. Munich Security Conference was prior to Russia's invasion.

Russia is not the problem here with regard to nuke issues.

Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30527 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 7:36 pm to
quote:

Yeah, about that:
"The Pentagon under the Biden administration has rolled out a revised Nuclear Posture Review (NPR), and it allows for nuclear responses to non-nuclear events.
It’s not MAGA extremist right-wingers who are noting this with alarm, it’s liberal and hard-left peaceniks.


There was a thread last year where "they" were upset about Biden backing off nukes.


quote:

House GOP: Biden Must Explain Push To Reduce Role Of Nuclear Weapons



It is another example of if the other side is for it I am against it, even though I was for it last week. A rot that infects all sides of the political spectrum these days.

I have always seen the nuclear show and tell as being far above my pay grade and I just accept I do not have the information to dissect the decisions made.
Posted by AU86
Member since Aug 2009
26257 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 7:46 pm to
quote:

Rumors of a new Peace Proposal brokered by Western Europe

1. Russia leaves all Ukrainian territory
2. 100 KM security zone around the borders of Belarus, RU, UKR patrolled by a coalition of 6 nations
3. NATO Membership tabled for 7 years
4. Crimea would become neutral
5. RU Navy leaves Black Sea
This post was edited on 12/7 at 3:38 pm


Russia will never accept that. If Putin did, he would be finished.
Posted by TBoy
Kalamazoo
Member since Dec 2007
28603 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 7:56 pm to
quote:

The Union of Concerned Scientists, for example, describes the Biden nuclear policy changes as adding up to “a terrifying document.” The more diplomatic Federation of American Scientists says the revised Biden nuclear policy is “a disappointment from a risk-reduction perspective.”"

These entities are extremely consistent in advocating for an end to nuclear threats worldwide. I would expect them to make a statement opposing any policy discussion that even considers the use of nuclear weapons.

But of course Russia has threatened nuclear destruction several times in 2022 alone. There is nothing inherently wrong with standing up to those threats and making equivalent threats of our own. It may not, at first glance, appear to be a path to threat reduction. However, if mutual assured destruction is a path to threat reduction, and it has been since the 1960s, then adopting an equivalent policy to the Russian policy can be viewed as a threat reducer.

Russia has to accept the fact that its nuclear threat-making also threatens Russia. If they are capable of understanding this, then they should be less aggressive in their threat making.
Posted by StormyMcMan
USA
Member since Oct 2016
4669 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 8:44 pm to
isw update

quote:

Russian President Vladimir Putin is setting conditions for a protracted war of conquest in Ukraine. During a meeting with the Russian Presidential Council for the Development of Civil Society and Human Rights (HRC), Putin remarked that the “special operation” in Ukraine can be a “lengthy process” and that the acquisition of new territory is a significant result of this process for Russia.[1] Putin compared himself favorably with Russian Tsar Peter the Great by noting that Russia now controls the Sea of Azov, which Peter the Great also fought for.[2] This invocation of Russian imperial history explicitly frames Putin’s current goals in Ukraine as overtly imperialistic and still maximalist. Putin is conditioning Russian domestic audiences to expect a protracted, grinding war in Ukraine that continues to seek the conquest of additional Ukrainian territory.

The Russian information space responded positively to Putin’s assertions and set further conditions for the protraction of the war, with one milblogger comparing Ukraine to Syria and noting that Russian forces did not start meaningfully experiencing victories on the battlefield until years into the operation


quote:

Putin notably is using the Russian HRC as a means to consolidate political power in a way that is fundamentally incompatible with basic principles of international human rights law.


quote:

Putin reiterated Russia’s formal position on the use of nuclear weapons in a statement to the Russian HRC on December 7 with no noteworthy changes. Putin claimed that the threat of nuclear war is growing, but that Russia will not be the first to employ nuclear weapons.[7] Putin added, however, that if Russia is not the first to initiate the first use of nuclear weapons, it will also not be the second to do so, because the “possibility of using [a nuclear weapon] in the event of a nuclear strike on [Russian] territory are very limited.”[8] Putin reiterated that Russian nuclear doctrine is premised on self-defense and stated that any Russian nuclear use would be retaliatory. Putin also emphasized that Russia is not “crazy” and is acutely aware of the power of nuclear weapons but will not “brandish” them


quote:

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg stated that the Russian military seeks an operational pause in winter 2022-2023 to regain the initiative and conduct a counteroffensive in spring 2023, partially supporting ISW’s prior assessment.[10] Stoltenberg told the Financial Times on December 7 that Russia seeks to “freeze” the fighting in Ukraine “at least for a short period of time so they can regroup, repair, recover... [a]nd then try to launch a bigger offensive next spring.”


quote:

Putin continues to seem unwilling to pursue such a cessation of fighting, however. The Russian military is continuing offensive operations around Bakhmut and is—so far—denying itself the operational pause that would be consistent with best military practice. Putin’s current fixation with continuing offensive operations around Bakhmut and elsewhere is contributing to Ukraine’s ability to maintain the military initiative in other parts of the theater. Ukraine’s continued operational successes depend on Ukrainian forces’ ability to continue successive operations through the winter of 2022-2023 without interruption.[


quote:

Russian forces used Iranian-made drones to strike Ukrainian cities for the first time in three weeks, likely as a result of Russian forces having modified the drones for colder weather. Ukrainian Air Force Command Spokesperson Yuriy Ihnat stated on December 7 that Russian forces resumed the use of Iranian-made loitering munitions after a three-week break and suggested that Russian forces had faced complications using the drones due to icing issues in colder weather.


quote:

Russian efforts to pressure Belarus into joining the war in Ukraine may be causing internal friction in the Belarusian military. The Ukrainian General Staff reported on December 7 that soldiers of the Belarusian border service and the Belarusian Armed forces are growing increasingly dissatisfied with the activities of the Belarusian military-political leadership due to the threat of Belarus entering the war in Ukraine.[18] ISW has previously assessed that Russian Defense Minister Army General Shoigu met with Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko and Belarusian Defense Minister Major General Viktor Khrenin on December 3 to place further pressure on Belarus to support Russia‘s offensive campaign in Ukraine.[19] ISW has also previously reported that Belarusian officials, including Lukashenko and Khrenin, have used rhetoric to support an ongoing Russian information operation aimed at fixing Ukrainian forces on the Belarusian-Ukrainian border with the threat of Belarus entering the war.[20] Russian pressure and the participation of Belarusian officials in the ongoing Russian information operation may be causing unease among Belarusian military personnel. ISW continues to assess that Belarus is highly unlikely to enter the war in Ukraine due to domestic factors that constrain Lukashenko’s willingness to do so.


quote:

Key Takeaways

Russian President Vladimir Putin is setting conditions for a protracted war of conquest in Ukraine.

Putin is using Russia’s Human Rights Council to consolidate power while rejecting principles of international human rights law.

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg made comments supporting ISW’s previous assessments that an operational pause in the winter of 2022-2023 would favor Russia.

Russian forces used Shahed-136 drones in Ukraine for the first time in three weeks.

Russian efforts to pressure Belarus into joining the war in Ukraine may be causing friction in the Belarusian military.

Russian forces are likely increasing the pace of their counterattacks in eastern Kharkiv and western Luhansk Oblast.

Russian forces continued offensive operations in the Bakhmut and Avdiivka-Donetsk City areas.

Russian forces continued defensive operations and the reorientation of their forces in eastern Kherson Oblast.

Independent Russian media sources indicated that mobilization efforts will continue despite statements from Russian officials to the contrary.

Russian occupation authorities are likely transforming Mariupol, Donetsk Oblast, into a rear military and logistics base for Russian forces.
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30527 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 8:51 pm to



Imagine getting sucked in by recruiting poster thinking you would get one of Sasha Grey's overly dramatic blowjobs just to end up getting your icon kissed by a toothless drunken conscript in a trench being streamed on Ukrainian drone TV. Aspirations of Pornhub, reality of r/combatfootage.

It is obvious they stole her picture, whether or not the poster actually exists is unknown but unlikely.




Reminds me of a song possibly far too obtuse of a reference:

We touch, I feel a rush, we clutch, it isn't much
But it's enough to make me wonder what's in store for us
It's lust, it's torturous, you must be a sorceress
'Cause you just did the impossible, gained my trust
Don't play games, it'd be dangerous if you frick me over
'Cause if I get burnt, I'ma show ya what it's like to hurt
'Cause I've been treated like dirt befo' ya
And love is evol, spell it backwards, I'll show ya
Nobody knows me, I'm cold, walk down this road all alone
It's no one's fault but my own, it's the path I've chosen to go
Frozen as snow, I show no emotion whatsoever, so
Don't ask me why I have no love for these mo'frickin' ho's
Blood suckin' succubuses, what the frick is up with this?
I've tried in this department, but I ain't had no luck with this
Posted by StormyMcMan
USA
Member since Oct 2016
4669 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 8:52 pm to
quote:

And Zelensky worked to create a situation whereby NATO was going to move in and be right on Russia's border.


I really never got this argument nor understand why it's still being used as a reason for the war as Russia has pretty much stopped using this line.

I mean are we just gonna ignore that Norway, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland already share a border with Russia AND Finland is one vote away from also being in NATO and isn't being actively invaded by Russia for trying to join.
This post was edited on 12/7/22 at 8:52 pm
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30527 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 8:56 pm to
Speaking of nuclear threats this is what Putin has recently said about it.

Twitter
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30527 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 8:59 pm to


AKA we need to build up more warm bodies to deploy to the front in 18 years.
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30527 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 9:02 pm to
Solovyov's morning show.

But we have been told we are a space power...

Twitter
Posted by Obtuse1
Westside Bodymore Yo
Member since Sep 2016
30527 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 9:13 pm to
Solovyoz putting on his best German accent to have a pole at Scholz

Twitter
Posted by AU86
Member since Aug 2009
26257 posts
Posted on 12/7/22 at 10:08 pm to
Zelensky better watch his back. That two faced Frenchman has met with Biden and Scholz has been on the phone with Vlad.
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