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Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:18 pm to OMLandshark
The Ukranian Marshall Plan is going to be hilarious.. 
So many American businessmen will become more wealthy.
So many American businessmen will become more wealthy.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:19 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Archaic alliances led to WWI. Hopefully we're smarter than that today.
Not arguing that. I do think there’s risk of spillover due to NATO alliance. Some is probably worth it, some probably isn’t. Doesn’t change the fact that by Putin’s own words, and direct comparisons of himself to Peter the Great, that he does in fact want to bring the Baltic states back into a Russian empire, so yes we do know he will/would attack NATO countries in the future if we had done nothing in the first place. Potentially even if we just stop now. Unless, of course, we’re to just ignore the stated ambitions of the dictator of a country with a long history of conquering neighboring nations.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:19 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Give it up, Roger. You are clearly too simple-minded to have a rational discussion. You consistently ignore meaning, or lack the skills to understand, and you're happy to pluck words from context in order to twist them into some childish shite. Do you really feel as if you're making sense in this thread? Have your years of alcohol abuse damaged your brain to the point that you no longer understand context, or did you just never grasp it?
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:21 pm to DabosDynasty
quote:
Unless, of course, we’re to just ignore the stated ambitions of the dictator of a country with a long history of conquering neighboring nations.
I don't think anyone ignores. I just don't understand why we have to intervene, Its Europe's war.
We've handed Europeans military welfare for WAAAY too long. Time for them to take a stand and fund their own defense.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:21 pm to Korkstand
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/16/26 at 11:21 pm
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:21 pm to alpinetiger
quote:
Is it me, or all these people taking CIA/State Department crazy pills? Kissinger - who I respect but disagree with - is even on the side of no US involvement. But CircleK who apparently sells oil field equipment is all on board.
As opposed to the handful of openly pro Russian folks here who are literally regurgitating talking points from the all time hoax that was Q.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:23 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:This assumes that people only care about being alive and not what kind of lives they're living.
Let’s say tomorrow the US demands Canada ceed British Columbia to us or we will invade. Canada rejects the demand and we invade. Canada resists, taking and causing terrible losses for both sides. But the US keeps advancing. The US has a much larger capacity to absorb losses than Canada. The US has much more military power than Canada. Within a few months it’s obvious the longer the fighting continues the weaker Canada will become and the more of British Columbia the US will take. It’s at this point Canada would be better served to sue for peace and begin negotiating an end of the war. You see, most wars end with a negotiated peace. How those negotiations go depends on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the negotiating parties. When peace talks do start, each country wants to come to the table to begin talks from as much of a standpoint of strength as possible. If one of the countries, Canada in this example, is losing negotiating power daily on the battlefield as long as the fighting continues, then they’re only hurting themselves by continuing fighting.
Why would Canada reject the demand initially since it's already obvious that they can't win before the first shot is even fired? Why would they fight for months if they know they're going to cede the land anyway? By your logic they should just give the US the land right away, right?
What would it mean for the future of Canada? Do they even deserve to exist if they aren't willing to put up a fight? Should the US just stop at BC since the Canadians were so nice about handing it over, or would we just go ahead and take more since it was so easy? Especially since now the strength is even more tilted toward the US than it was before.
If everyone followed your logic we would have one world government by now.
quote:I'm a "fan" of fighting for the freedom to choose one's own government.
If you’re really a “fan” of Ukraine, then you’d be honest enough to asses the situation and conclude Ukraine has nothing left to gain and much to lose by continuing the war.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:23 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
We didn't have a nuclear war in 1956, which is what Ike tried to avoid.
Are you saying he was wrong?
We had a major nuclear crisis not even a 6 years later. You can't seem to understand the cause and effect nature of international geopolitics.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:24 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
We didn't have a nuclear war in 1956, which is what Ike tried to avoid.
Are you saying he was wrong?
Instead he passed things on to Kennedy who hit us even closer to WWIII.
And I will admit I can’t discuss Hungary and Ike with any confidence. I do know backing off against Russia and not confronting them never worked.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:24 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Give it up, Roger. You are clearly too simple-minded to have a rational discussion.
You poor little child. You lie, get called out and take your anger out on others.
Just admit the only border you care about is the one between Russia and Ukraine
I figured you would just lie and say you respect the rule of law regarding borders, but you surprised me and are fighting tooth and nail, which is even more fun.This post was edited on 7/5/22 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:25 pm to REG861
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/16/26 at 11:21 pm
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:25 pm to OMLandshark
quote:That is *not* what Roger is doing. Roger is taking words out of context and applying them to a completely different context, and refusing to acknowledge having done so.
Yeah, simply asking if we should be spending cash on this makes one simple minded.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:25 pm to DabosDynasty
quote:
We may disagree in general, but I appreciate your background and general lack of the Russian troll style responses, that have become so common in here, in your disagreement.
Thank you.
quote:
Genuinely asking because I’m interested, I have no point to make, but from what we’ve seen so far from Russia does it at all alter how you saw the Cold War?
Well, you have to take into account how the world has fundamentally changed since the collapse the the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. At that time you had two diametrically opposed ideologies, both wanting to to ultimately eradicate the other. Thankfully that opposition never metastasized into WWIII or we most likely would not be having this conversation.
As for my view of the Soviet Union, they were pure evil in the same way Nazi Germany was evil. I’m glad both were relegated to the dustbin of history.
Which that brings us to today. The USSR is gone and what we have now is the Russian Federation under Putin, who is for all intents and purposes has assumed dictatorial powers.
So how do we view Russia in light of the current situation there? The answer to that is to discern what it is Putin wants to do. That should be obvious at this point, he ultimately wants to return Russia to the status of global superpower. This is Putin’s ultimate goal. So now that we know what he wants to do, this leads us to ask how does he plan to do it? Again, this should be obvious.
1. Increase international trade of Russia’s assists, namely oil and natural gas. He’s done this via (1) massive investment in Russia’s oil and natural gas production and (2) encouraging and even bankrolling environmental groups in the West opposed to oil & natural gas production there in order to both weaken then West and make us (especially Europe) more dependent on Russian oil & natural gas
2. Expansion of Russian influence in areas previously under Russia’s sphere of influence during the Soviet era. To achieve this Russia has used both energy policy as well as military means in places like Georgia and now Ukraine.
So that brings us to what we need to do. Again, the answers are simple, though not popular:
1. Convince Ukraine to sue for peace, even if it means giving over chunks of the eastern part of Ukraine. The longer the war goes, the more of Ukraine Russia will occupy. All that can be done now is to stop the bleeding. If Ukraine can be given time to recover her strength, she would be a valuable NATO ally, especially if she’s backed by a strong NATO force to back her up. At that point, Putin’s bluff will have been called. He’d know that any resumption in hostility would have little to no chance of success.
2. Build up American and Western energy production, particularly oil and natural gas. The more oil and natural gas we produce, the lower the price of these two global commodities will go. The lower the price of oil & natural gas on the global market, the weaker Russia will become. Russia is dependent on oil and natural gas exports. When revenue from these two are high, Russia flourishes. When the price of these two is close, Russia is weakened economically.
So, there’s your answer on how to stop Russia.
1. Stop the fighting in Ukraine and preserve as much of Ukrainian strength as possible.
2. Build up Ukraine as a strong NATO member while also backing her up with a strong NATO force.
3. Castrate Russia economically by driving down the global price of oil and natural gas.
In other words, welcome to the Second Cold War. Our only other option is to retreat into 1920s style isolationism. But the first step is to end this war ASAP. The only country benefiting from it is Russia.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:26 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Yeah, simply asking if we should be spending cash on this makes one simple minded. What’s the max price you’re willing to pay for this? Should we just go ahead and cut Zelensky the 750 billion dollar check? Is that finally too much cash for this?
The benefits of direct investment into Europe post-WWII paid for itself many times over. That total amount would not be provided directly by the US either but alas.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:27 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Roger is taking words out of context
Wrong. You just don't want to stick to the actual meaning of the words you said.
Not my problem, Che. You have major communication issues.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:27 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
I don't think anyone ignores. I just don't understand why we have to intervene, Its Europe's war.
OML would prefer we did ignore it until he did attack a NATO nation, which is where the comparisons to Hitler come in to play. It’s the ignorance of pacifism in the face of a dictator with states ambitions of expansion.
quote:
We've handed Europeans military welfare for WAAAY too long. Time for them to take a stand and fund their own defense.
100% agree, but the reality is they’ve been corrupted by Russia over the years with their energy and are once again pacifist to European aggression. Part of this is our fault because, as you stated, we handed Europeans motility welfare for WAAAY too long. The problem is we suffer too if Russia rolls unchecked. I’d argue more so because of the path it clears for China than Russias own aggression. This is not a simple 1-1 regional conflict with no international carry over, economically (as many bring up) nor militarily.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:28 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
2. Build up Ukraine as a strong NATO member while also backing her up with a strong NATO force.
I don't see how this is possible, as it would beggar belief that Russia, who you feel has the upper hand, would agree to any lasting peace if Ukraine joined NATO eventually. From that perspective, it would be better for Russia to control Ukraine entirely than to risk that nation joining NATO.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:29 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Our only other option is to retreat into 1920s style isolationism.
I have no issue with that.
The days of global hegemony are long over. We can't even handle our own domestic affairs.
Posted on 7/5/22 at 12:29 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
What’s the max price you’re willing to pay for this?
Since you brought it up again, what's the maximum price you would pay for Taiwan
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