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re: Do you feel race relations would be better if CSA still existed.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:15 am to tidefan408
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:15 am to tidefan408
quote:
tidefan408
Civil War was fought to keep the Union together....not to abolish slavery.
Abolishing Slavery was a tactic that honest Abe used to hurt the South from within. It gave slaves in the South more of a motivation to run away from the owners with the Union breathing down on the south.
2
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:17 am to someLSUdoosh
quote:
Civil War was fought to keep the Union together.
A Union which broke apart, in part, because of the issue of slavery.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:19 am to someLSUdoosh
You can whitewash it any way you want...but every reason you will give comes back to one thing...
Slavery
Slavery
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:19 am to volod
There will never be equality. It's not natural. Our cells are killing eachother, planets collide, animals kill eachother to eat, competition runs life--regardless of if the CSA were around or not things would be no better than they are now.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:20 am to stout
quote:
The most discriminated against person in the USA today is a straight white male
^
Don't forget Christian.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:20 am to tankyank13
quote:
Many blacks would be doing better if nearly 80% of them weren't born out of wedlock
This is damn spot on. This has been a relatively recent phenomenon too. In the 1970s more black kids were raised in two parent households than white kids. I read a book by Thomas Sowell that discussed this in length. Black kids that are born into two parent households have almost the exact same economic outlook as white kids. The problem is that only about 30% of them are compared to about 65-70% of whites (my numbers might be a few % off in either direction but close).
This post was edited on 6/1/17 at 8:42 am
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:22 am to jdeval1
Thomas Sowell is brilliant. 
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:25 am to volod
And let me say one more thing...ive been reading these threads about the statues and I want to say this...they were leading an armed rebellion against the United States of America and fighting for the creation of a slave holding empire.They should have all been shot for treason.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:26 am to volod
This a bad thread idea
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:31 am to tidefan408
(no message)
This post was edited on 10/27/20 at 11:00 pm
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:33 am to volod
Obviously, slavery in the south would have lasted longer if the CSA still existed. How long it would have existed is hard to know. The ease of communication at the turn of the century compared to previous times really exposed evils in the world that previously could get swept under the rug, so I don't think it would have lasted a lot longer, as in I don't think it makes it into the 1900's. So in that sense, it would have delayed relations somewhat. Who knows exactly how long....20, 30, 40 years???
Now if the CSA existed along side the Union and they both shut off slavery at the exact same time, then I don't think it changes a thing. Although slavery was a huge part of the CW, it's not like the North was full of SJW's. It was much easier for them to call slavery a bad thing since it wasn't tied to their economy as tightly. But that doesn't mean they were all hugs and kisses to African Americans. They just didn't have to deal with the integration as much, that's one reason they didn't quite have the issues the south had. I think widespread transportation of information (images/reports/video of injustices) forces CSA to make integration reform in nearly the same way in order to keep it's economy in shape due to world political influence.
I truly hate the false narrative that Lincoln and the North freed the slaves. I do feel it was the cause of the war, but I don't think that Lincoln should quite be praised the way he is. We are tearing down statues where men publicly stated they were against slavery, but were tied to their state, so they fought for that state's cause. Yet we praise Lincoln for freeing slaves, when he didn't free all slaves with the Emancipation Proclimation. Only those in the CSA and it was done not for justice, but to hurt the South politically. He did not abolish it in Union states....so did he really care about slaves the way history makes it seem? And his stance on freed African Americans was atrocious. He thought they were less than whites and should be shipped off to their own colony. Yet we aren't thinking of changing school names or tearing down the Lincoln monument.
Now if the CSA existed along side the Union and they both shut off slavery at the exact same time, then I don't think it changes a thing. Although slavery was a huge part of the CW, it's not like the North was full of SJW's. It was much easier for them to call slavery a bad thing since it wasn't tied to their economy as tightly. But that doesn't mean they were all hugs and kisses to African Americans. They just didn't have to deal with the integration as much, that's one reason they didn't quite have the issues the south had. I think widespread transportation of information (images/reports/video of injustices) forces CSA to make integration reform in nearly the same way in order to keep it's economy in shape due to world political influence.
I truly hate the false narrative that Lincoln and the North freed the slaves. I do feel it was the cause of the war, but I don't think that Lincoln should quite be praised the way he is. We are tearing down statues where men publicly stated they were against slavery, but were tied to their state, so they fought for that state's cause. Yet we praise Lincoln for freeing slaves, when he didn't free all slaves with the Emancipation Proclimation. Only those in the CSA and it was done not for justice, but to hurt the South politically. He did not abolish it in Union states....so did he really care about slaves the way history makes it seem? And his stance on freed African Americans was atrocious. He thought they were less than whites and should be shipped off to their own colony. Yet we aren't thinking of changing school names or tearing down the Lincoln monument.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:39 am to volod
You know volod, to he honest, I like your discussion threads. They always seem genuine.
It's not so much a CSA issue, but it is a federal government overreach issue. There is no doubt slavery needed to end, but the way in which they tried to then integrate two completely seperate cultures and societies has been studied many times over as an example of complete failure.
They would be better without forced integration by the federal government.
They should've outlawed slavery and then allowed the South to integrate naturally. Forced integration caused hatred to dig in its heels, white flight, education district bussing, neighborhood segregation, etc....
Plenty of Southern Leaders of the time saw slavery as an evil that would end and knew that the black community would take some time to integrate into society, but the federal government forcing it to happen gave all the idiot racists a cause to rally around.
MLK Jr himself believed in this. One of his best speeches was about just going to work. He said if you want people to respect you and accept you you should just go about your day. Go to work, go to school, be the best you can be and show people you deserve to be there. Do not sip from the cup of bitterness and hatred but demonstrate on the highest plane.
Respect isn't given and it can't be dictated. It has to be earned.
The Civil War is a brilliant "winners right the history books" example. The North didn't abolish slavery in itself until well after the Civil War. The Civil War was fought to preserve the union and the country as a whole. The South wanted to form its own county with a small federal government and large protections for individual state rights. The north believed in ruling from the federal government. No president in history shite on the constitution more than Abraham Lincoln. It was never ever about slavery until Lincoln needed a cause for the north to rally around.
The South then and into today are still fighting to just be left the frick alone and let us figure it out. The North and the federal government still fight everyday to mingle too far into state's and personal rights.
I've said this before, but it infuriates me when some mouth breathing kunt from the north east or California tries to preach to me or teach me about race relations.
I live in a city thats 60% black and I grew up my whole life with black friends and co-workers and in laws and family members and interactions every single day. I'll be goddamned if some over educated lilywhite segregated fricknut from a gated community in the north is going to try to tell me what I don't understand about race relations.
quote:
Do you feel race relations would be better if CSA still existed.
It's not so much a CSA issue, but it is a federal government overreach issue. There is no doubt slavery needed to end, but the way in which they tried to then integrate two completely seperate cultures and societies has been studied many times over as an example of complete failure.
They would be better without forced integration by the federal government.
They should've outlawed slavery and then allowed the South to integrate naturally. Forced integration caused hatred to dig in its heels, white flight, education district bussing, neighborhood segregation, etc....
Plenty of Southern Leaders of the time saw slavery as an evil that would end and knew that the black community would take some time to integrate into society, but the federal government forcing it to happen gave all the idiot racists a cause to rally around.
MLK Jr himself believed in this. One of his best speeches was about just going to work. He said if you want people to respect you and accept you you should just go about your day. Go to work, go to school, be the best you can be and show people you deserve to be there. Do not sip from the cup of bitterness and hatred but demonstrate on the highest plane.
Respect isn't given and it can't be dictated. It has to be earned.
The Civil War is a brilliant "winners right the history books" example. The North didn't abolish slavery in itself until well after the Civil War. The Civil War was fought to preserve the union and the country as a whole. The South wanted to form its own county with a small federal government and large protections for individual state rights. The north believed in ruling from the federal government. No president in history shite on the constitution more than Abraham Lincoln. It was never ever about slavery until Lincoln needed a cause for the north to rally around.
The South then and into today are still fighting to just be left the frick alone and let us figure it out. The North and the federal government still fight everyday to mingle too far into state's and personal rights.
I've said this before, but it infuriates me when some mouth breathing kunt from the north east or California tries to preach to me or teach me about race relations.
I live in a city thats 60% black and I grew up my whole life with black friends and co-workers and in laws and family members and interactions every single day. I'll be goddamned if some over educated lilywhite segregated fricknut from a gated community in the north is going to try to tell me what I don't understand about race relations.
This post was edited on 6/1/17 at 9:19 am
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:41 am to volod
Race relations would be exponentially better if the cultural Marxists were wiped from the face of the earth
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:42 am to volod
quote:
volod
Leesville
I thought about you last night watching The Retrieval. They were on their way to Leesville in the movie.
How do you feel about free blacks who were paid to go undercover as runaway slaves to find real runaway slaves?
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:44 am to KG6
quote:
Now if the CSA existed along side the Union and they both shut off slavery at the exact same time, then I don't think it changes a thing. Although slavery was a huge part of the CW, it's not like the North was full of SJW's. It was much easier for them to call slavery a bad thing since it wasn't tied to their economy as tightly. But that doesn't mean they were all hugs and kisses to African Americans. They just didn't have to deal with the integration as much, that's one reason they didn't quite have the issues the south had. I think widespread transportation of information (images/reports/video of injustices) forces CSA to make integration reform in nearly the same way in order to keep it's economy in shape due to world political influence.
I totally agree with this. I know that the Union had already found a replacement for slavery, so they were in a position where ending it would not really hurt them as much. And the irony of the South's slavery system was that it would have difficulties trading since Great Britain and France had already ended slavery and could get their crops elsewhere in their empires.
quote:
I truly hate the false narrative that Lincoln and the North freed the slaves. I do feel it was the cause of the war, but I don't think that Lincoln should quite be praised the way he is. We are tearing down statues where men publicly stated they were against slavery, but were tied to their state, so they fought for that state's cause. Yet we praise Lincoln for freeing slaves, when he didn't free all slaves with the Emancipation Proclimation. Only those in the CSA and it was done not for justice, but to hurt the South politically. He did not abolish it in Union states....so did he really care about slaves the way history makes it seem? And his stance on freed African Americans was atrocious. He thought they were less than whites and should be shipped off to their own colony. Yet we aren't thinking of changing school names or tearing down the Lincoln monument.
I think Lincoln was a good president for his time, but even I can see that his political gains were his primary inspiration. Think about it, he wins even today as you said. He started a war, freeing a people he thought inferior, yet is remembered as the "Great Liberator" for doing something very progressive in his era. This in spite of the fact that he would have never pushed for Civil War if there was a better way to reunite the South.
The sad truth is that in history, none of the leaders who set things in motion are alive long enough to feel the consequences of their decisions.
This post was edited on 6/1/17 at 8:46 am
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:45 am to volod
Humans are tribal by nature, it's just who we are. How we define what tribe we are in is what changes.
My grandfather on my father's side supposedly did not approve of my mother when my parents first got married because she was the wrong flavor of European-American. My grandfather was a 1st generation immigrant who was taught the old European national rivalries. Most of my generation (X) and later don't give a rats arse what part of the world other American's ancestors came from.
It's easy to hate a faceless stereotype you don't interact with, it's a lot harder to hate grandma and grandpa or your favorite aunt or uncle. The more these tribes intermingle into the melting pot the less these tribes exist. Normally I'd say our fixation on skin color would go away in a few more generations because there is more interracial dating than ever, but all of these people gaining money and power off of racial politics hiding behind "social justice" creates division, not assimilation. Combine that with us being so easily manipulated on social media and the powers that be wanting us divided into easy to market to groups, and our progress towards a colorblind society will be slowed.
We will get there but like I said before, humans are tribal by nature, so we will find new tribes within us to hate for stupid reasons. The Class Wars are really ready to ramp up.
My grandfather on my father's side supposedly did not approve of my mother when my parents first got married because she was the wrong flavor of European-American. My grandfather was a 1st generation immigrant who was taught the old European national rivalries. Most of my generation (X) and later don't give a rats arse what part of the world other American's ancestors came from.
It's easy to hate a faceless stereotype you don't interact with, it's a lot harder to hate grandma and grandpa or your favorite aunt or uncle. The more these tribes intermingle into the melting pot the less these tribes exist. Normally I'd say our fixation on skin color would go away in a few more generations because there is more interracial dating than ever, but all of these people gaining money and power off of racial politics hiding behind "social justice" creates division, not assimilation. Combine that with us being so easily manipulated on social media and the powers that be wanting us divided into easy to market to groups, and our progress towards a colorblind society will be slowed.
We will get there but like I said before, humans are tribal by nature, so we will find new tribes within us to hate for stupid reasons. The Class Wars are really ready to ramp up.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:46 am to volod
Things worked out for the best.
Doesn't mean that there's nothing good to be said about the South and some of its other reasons for declaring independence.
Doesn't mean that there's nothing good to be said about the South and some of its other reasons for declaring independence.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:48 am to volod
quote:
I would be dishonest in saying I don't have feelings involved (since I hate slavery)
You just couldn't help it, could you. Do you honestly believe that mainstream white people go through their lives thinking that slavery wasn't/isn't necessarily a bad thing?
Honest question.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:51 am to volod
You must be reading Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:52 am to volod
It's impossible to know, perhaps race relations would be better if the colonies had lost the War for Independence and slavery was abolished along with the rest of the British Empire.
Slavery would have continued if the CSA won, but without Reconstruction and it's aftermath, maybe integration would have been easier if it happened on its own.
Slavery would have continued if the CSA won, but without Reconstruction and it's aftermath, maybe integration would have been easier if it happened on its own.
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