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Message
re: 77 Years Ago Today: Operation Barbarossa
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:27 pm to Darth_Vader
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:27 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
However, the T34 did have serious drawbacks comparative to it's German counterparts that made it vulnerable. Chief among it's drawback was the limitations imposed on it by it's poor optic
Didn’t need the optics for the way it was used though. Mass waves at speed to close the gap and overwhelm the panzers. Get close and use your numbers.
quote:
This, along with better trained panzer crews, accounts for the disparity in losses between the Germans and Soviets when it comes to tanks.
I’d say the disparity is more aligned with different trains of thought. You have to think, Zhukov used his tanks in an entirely different manner than the Germans. Overwhelming numbers, get close and punch. Losses don’t matter.
quote:
As for the KV-2, it was actually designed for infantry support. While it did have a massive 152mm gun, it was a low velocity gun as opposed to a high velocity gun designed for tank on tank combat. It could stand up to older more lightly armored German tanks. but against new models it was a sitting duck
Truth. It was more for taking out fortified positions rather than as an anti tank role, which the kv-1 was phenomenal at. My love of the KV-2 stems from world of tanks and war thunder. Gotta love them dank memes bro.
quote:
Throughout most of the war, this would be the case. However, as was shown later on in the Koran War, the M4A3E8 "Easy 8" was actually very effective against the T34/85.
But that’s later on
1
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:28 pm to PhillyTiger90
quote:
Had the Germans not massacred the locals on the lands they had passed through the population would’ve helped them take Stalin down
Probably one of the biggest German mistakes of the war. Initially in he opening stages of the war they were oftentimes hailed as liberators in villages, especially in Ukraine and the Baltic States. They had the support of a sizable chunk of the population. But they wasted all that goodwill with the treatment of the locals.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:31 pm to Darth_Vader
Also a huge surprise attack
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:33 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Probably one of the biggest German mistakes of the war.
But one that he fundamentally had to make. If he didn’t, his whole ideology crumbled.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:37 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Didn’t need the optics for the way it was used though. Mass waves at speed to close the gap and overwhelm the panzers. Get close and use your numbers.
Yep. Keyword there being numbers. This was the real advantage the Soviets had. It meant they took terrible losses. But they really didn’t care.
quote:
I’d say the disparity is more aligned with different trains of thought. You have to think, Zhukov used his tanks in an entirely different manner than the Germans. Overwhelming numbers, get close and punch. Losses don’t matter.
Yep. Soviet tank crews for most of the war were pretty terrible. Basically they knew how to drive and had to get to almost point blank range to hit anything due to such poor training. This is one reason the Soviets didn’t bother developing better sights for their tanks.
quote:
Truth. It was more for taking out fortified positions rather than as an anti tank role, which the kv-1 was phenomenal at. My love of the KV-2 stems from world of tanks and war thunder. Gotta love them dank memes bro.
Love World of Tanks other than the bullshite RNG. “Random” my arse.
quote:
But that’s later on
True. But keep in mind that by the time the Americans and Soviets met in Central Germany, most American Armored formations had the newer versions of the Sherman. The Pershing was also showing up in numbers as well.
This post was edited on 6/22/18 at 12:45 pm
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:43 pm to HempHead
They were after the oil in the Caucuses region and the real objective really was Stalingrad/Volgagrad where the oil pipeline terminuses were. In fact, German mountain troops had gone into the Caucuses and were heading for Baku near the Caspian Sea
If you look at the entire German Plan during the war and looking at their activity in North Africa, the whole objective was to get to the oil fields of the Middle East and control the Suez
If you look at the entire German Plan during the war and looking at their activity in North Africa, the whole objective was to get to the oil fields of the Middle East and control the Suez
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:49 pm to Darth_Vader
Love posts like this. Great discussion here. I don’t know enough to contribute but happily following along
Darth, have you read the book “Bloodlands” would it be a good recommendation for this subject? It’s been on my list for awhile
Darth, have you read the book “Bloodlands” would it be a good recommendation for this subject? It’s been on my list for awhile
This post was edited on 6/22/18 at 12:51 pm
Posted on 6/22/18 at 12:58 pm to Champagne
The following point is vitally important to remember for all students of the War on the Eastern Front.
We have discussed at length the importance of the German railway services in providing logistical support to the military forces. We have acknowledged the different rail gauges involved between Germany and the Soviet Union, we have mentioned the slowness of the German rebuilding efforts.
What we haven't discussed is the fact that the German railway services, called the Reichsbahn, was not placed on a wartime footing until AFTER 1941. This means that the Germans placed no special emphasis on the Reichsbahn when planning the logistical operations to support Barbarossa.
I don't know whether the Germans just didn't have the means to "beef-up" the number of their locomotives and other rolling stock or just forgot, but, they didn't in any significant way. This was another egregious and fatal oversight in the area of logistics.
Albert Speer became Minister of Armaments in February of 1942. He and he alone is responsible for putting the Reichsbahn on a war-time footing.
We have discussed at length the importance of the German railway services in providing logistical support to the military forces. We have acknowledged the different rail gauges involved between Germany and the Soviet Union, we have mentioned the slowness of the German rebuilding efforts.
What we haven't discussed is the fact that the German railway services, called the Reichsbahn, was not placed on a wartime footing until AFTER 1941. This means that the Germans placed no special emphasis on the Reichsbahn when planning the logistical operations to support Barbarossa.
I don't know whether the Germans just didn't have the means to "beef-up" the number of their locomotives and other rolling stock or just forgot, but, they didn't in any significant way. This was another egregious and fatal oversight in the area of logistics.
Albert Speer became Minister of Armaments in February of 1942. He and he alone is responsible for putting the Reichsbahn on a war-time footing.
This post was edited on 6/22/18 at 1:00 pm
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:14 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Love posts like this. Great discussion here. I don’t know enough to contribute but happily following along
Darth, have you read the book “Bloodlands” would it be a good recommendation for this subject? It’s been on my list for awhile
Thanks. Love these threads as well. I’ve not heard of this book. What’s it about?
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:20 pm to Champagne
quote:
What we haven't discussed is the fact that the German railway services, called the Reichsbahn, was not placed on a wartime footing until AFTER 1941. This means that the Germans placed no special emphasis on the Reichsbahn when planning the logistical operations to support Barbarossa.
I don't know whether the Germans just didn't have the means to "beef-up" the number of their locomotives and other rolling stock or just forgot, but, they didn't in any significant way. This was another egregious and fatal oversight in the area of logistics.
Albert Speer became Minister of Armaments in February of 1942. He and he alone is responsible for putting the Reichsbahn on a war-time footing.
I think this goes back to the mindset of Hitler. Remember he viewed the collapse of morale of the civilian popularion back in Germany in 1918 as to why they lost the war. In WWII. Hitler did not want the people at home to “feel” the hardship of war. This is why Gemrany didn’t do things like rationing vital materials or even simple steps like putting women to work in war factories. Hitler wanted the home front to live almost as though there wasn’t even a war going on. This included not interrupting civilian rail traffic.
Thus, as you said, it wasn’t until 1942 when Albert Speer became armaments minister that the German homefront went on anything resembling a war footing. Of course by then it was far too late. Had Gemrany fully mobilized at the onset of the war, things could have turned out far differently.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:38 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Love World of Tanks other than the bullshite RNG. “Random” my arse.
and the Russian bias. For real though. The 152 and the 183 are just obscene and for the lulz. Oh you have 200mm armor and 1800 health? Here’s a HESH round. Delete. Better luck next game champ
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:39 pm to Darth_Vader
The Russians are fond of saying that their general who ultimately defeated the Germans was General Frost.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:41 pm to beerJeep
Moving the Siberian divisions from the far east turned the tide.
But in the end it was pretty simple.. Germany and Japan would never be strong enough to fight the Soviets and Western allies on two fronts.
But in the end it was pretty simple.. Germany and Japan would never be strong enough to fight the Soviets and Western allies on two fronts.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:50 pm to prplhze2000
Lack of an effective navy (and Italian navy) screwed them once again. They lock down the Mediterranean and take Malta with a viable navy and North Africa is over quickly. Hitler can divert the Afrika Korps assets to Russia as well as gain Egyptian oil.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:50 pm to Swoopin
quote:
Never understood why the Germans thought they could fight on so many fronts simultaneously. Cocky SOBs
Read a book with an interesting thesis on that point recently.
The argument was that it was a calculated gamble. Germany didn't have much of a manufacturing base or natural resources and realized Britain had the US's huge natural resources and manufacturing ramping up to assist.
Barbarossa was an attempt to seize control of Russia's natural resources and manufacturing. It was trying to get materials sufficient to complete an invasion of Britain before they had too much US material to fight back with.
In that way, it was a calculated gamble to try to strike before the US really ramped up and Britain would have been loaded to hammer back an amphibious invasion.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:54 pm to beerJeep
quote:
and the Russian bias.
For real though. The 152 and the 183 are just obscene and for the lulz. Oh you have 200mm armor and 1800 health? Here’s a HESH round. Delete. Better luck next game champ
Before they nerfed it, I use to just obliterate people with the 152mm BL-10 on my ISU-152. Loved that thing. Now I just play arty though. Got tired of getting pissed off that no matter what I did it all came down to the stupid bullshite “luck” of RNG.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 1:55 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
before finally ending in the ruins of Berlin in May of 1945.
We basically let them take Berlin because there were thousands of fanatical Hitler youth holed up and ready to make a stand. It ended up costing the Soviets upwards of 120,000 KIA.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 2:13 pm to Darth_Vader
The only arty I play is the Sexton iii American premium tier 3. Like shooting fish in a barrel the Russian s-51 with AP is dirty when you 1-shot everything............. when you actually hit
the Russian s-51 with AP is dirty when you 1-shot everything............. when you actually hit 
Posted on 6/22/18 at 2:14 pm to Korin
Germany, you can’t keep going to war with the world. Who do you think you are? Mars?
Posted on 6/22/18 at 2:19 pm to beerJeep
quote:
The only arty I play is the Sexton iii American premium tier 3. Like shooting fish in a barrel the Russian s-51 with AP is dirty when you 1-shot everything............. when you actually hit
I’m working up the German and French arty lines. So far I’m up to Tier VIII in the German line and Tier VII on the French line. I could spec it up if I bought gold but I refuse to give them a dime until they fix their RNG. +/-25% on accuracy, pen, and damage is just absurd.
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