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re: 77 Years Ago Today: Operation Barbarossa

Posted on 6/22/18 at 10:55 am to
Posted by TigerFanInSouthland
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
28065 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 10:55 am to
quote:

Let's not forget about that horrible Russian winter. The Germans never thought that weather would be a cause that would ruin their chance at victory. Stupid fricks.


I don’t think that’s the case at all. They knew about ‘General Winter’ as the Russians called it. Hitler seemed almost haunted by the ghost of Napoleon. That’s why the Blitzkreig was even more important in the east than the west. They knew winter would come and they knew that that put the Communists at a huge advantage.
Posted by Darth_Vader
A galaxy far, far away
Member since Dec 2011
74618 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 10:55 am to
quote:

the Germans got to well within range of Moscow... some even saying they could see the golden domes of the Kremlin

but then... Hitler just NEEDED to take control of Stalingrad even though it had no real tactical importance... only b/c of the city's name

stay focused on Moscow instead of getting distracted by Stalingrad and who knows how the war turns out

Stalingrad ended up being the first major German defeat of the war overall... certainly turned the war on the Eastern Front into the USSR's favor



It wasn’t actually Stalingrad that distracted the Gemrans from Moscow. The Germans arrived at the gates of Moscow in December 41. But their forces were exhausted and the weather turned against them. The Soviets threw in fresh reserves from Siberia and threw the Germans back in a counteroffensive. In fact, the German front at Moscow came close to collapse. Ironically it was Hitler’s own “stand and die” order to Army Group Center that saved the Gemrans. After this, the front stabilized for the rest of the winter.

When Spring came the Germans decided their main goal for 1942 would be the Soviet Oil fields in the Caucasus. The oil fields were the ultimate goal of the Germans. Stalingrad itself was an afterthought. Sixth Army was to secure Stalingrad on the March for the sole purpose of securing the flank of Army Group South as it pushed into the oil fields. Stalingrad was not seen as being important initially. Only after 6th Army became invested in taking the city and it looked like they would achieve their goal, which really was just to secure the flank of Army Group South, did Hitler take a personal interest in taking Stalingrad.
Posted by Tiger 79
The Original Tiger 79
Member since Nov 2007
38912 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 10:58 am to
quote:

Imagine how things would have turned out had Hitlers vanity not gotten the best of him.


Very true.....
Posted by TigerFanInSouthland
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
28065 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 10:59 am to
quote:

stay focused on Moscow instead of getting distracted by Stalingrad and who knows how the war turns out


Napoleon captured Moscow for all the good it did him. The Soviet government did something that is unthinkable, they tore down factories, moved them to the heart of inland Russia, built them back up, and started producing vast amounts of arms for their troops. Hitler would’ve never been able to defeat the Soviets even if he threw his entire military at them, which he basically did when you think about how 7 out of every 8 German men killed in WWII were killed on the eastern front.
Posted by Darth_Vader
A galaxy far, far away
Member since Dec 2011
74618 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:01 am to
quote:

I’d argue the oil fields of the Caucasus were far more important than Stalingrad or Moscow.


More important than Stalingrad? Yes. More impoetant than Moscow? No.

Moscow the the nerve center of European Russia. All major river and rail networks converge on Moscow. Whoever holds Moscow holds European Russia. Had the Germans took Moscow, this would have isolated the north and south of the Soviet Union from one another. The Gemrans could then defeat each isolated pocket in detail.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17232 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:01 am to
quote:

1. Hitler thought that while Britian still remained in the War, they could not really do anything.


This. And he was right. The British posed zero threat of a cross channel invasion to Germany at this point. Also, the Soviet Union posed a very real threat to Germany at the time. It was an aggressive state. It was a powerful state. And it's leader had no moral qualms about conquering and pillaging in the name of international communism. Neither leader gave two shits about honoring their non-aggression pact. Both made it in the name of their own temporary interests and thought they were manipulating the other in the long run.

All the Soviets really needed to do to put Germany in a serious crunch was invade Romania. Also the lingering threat of the Soviets jumping in with the British. A quick knockout of the USSR would have entrenched Germany's position to the point that even a future American entry on the side of the British, which was also rationally feared by Germany, would be unlikely to pose any real threat of victory over Germany. It would have created the conditions for which continued British persistence to refuse an armistice would have been demonstrably insane and suicidal.

For these reasons, I don't view Barbarossa as Hitler's most inexcusable mistake of the war. To me it is still the declaration on the United States. At that point, and given that the Soviets had just blunted the push on Moscow and launched an effective counterattack prior to the declaration, it was totally reactive and stupid.
Posted by Tortious
ATX
Member since Nov 2010
5770 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:02 am to
quote:

On 30 July 1941, which is only eight days after invasion, the spearhead of the German Army Group Center was 447 miles away from the nearest railhead.



If I recall the Russian rail gauges...

ETA - Damn already brought up.
This post was edited on 6/22/18 at 11:08 am
Posted by TigerFanInSouthland
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
28065 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:04 am to
quote:

The Russians beat the Russians in wwi. The Germans were simply able to wait that out.


To be fair, the Germans destroyed two Russian armies within the first month of the war and the Russians were never really able to mount an offensive to defeat the Germans until very late in the war and still couldn’t make the Germans capitulate in the east. Luddendorf decided to ship Lenin back east to foment revolution in Russia so he could throw all his dice west.
Posted by teke184
Zachary, LA
Member since Jan 2007
105178 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:06 am to
If you win Moscow but can’t supply it, can you hold it long enough to beat the Russians?


The Germans couldn’t supply their troops by water during the winter months because everything was frozen over.

Combine that with the rail gauge issues and the Russians going scorched earth and you have German control of a city with no resources.

It would frick the Russians for the Germans to have it but I wouldn’t think it would be very defensible for the Germans if they were getting supplied via horse cart in the Russian winter.
Posted by AA77
Member since Jan 2016
3874 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:06 am to
quote:

1. Hitler thought that while Britian still remained in the War, they could not really do anything. Remember in spring 1941, America was not in the war. France has been conquered. And Britian, had no real army left. Sure they had rescued thousands of British troops at Dunkirk. But they’d had to leave behind almost all their heavy equipment like artillery and tanks. So I’m Hitler’s mind, it would be years before Britian was a threat again. He saw his western flank as secure for the foreseeable future, which it was.



Also worth noting that Göring convinced everyone in the leadership that the Luftwaffe could easily knock out Britain. But the RAF had a different idea.

Posted by teke184
Zachary, LA
Member since Jan 2007
105178 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:08 am to
In Goring’s defense, I don’t think he predicted the invention of radar which allowed the Brits to intercept German planes.

The wives tale about carrots improving eyesight comes from the lies told by British airmen for why they could figure out where German planes were in the dark.
Posted by zatetic
Member since Nov 2015
5677 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:09 am to
quote:

but then... Hitler just NEEDED to take control of Stalingrad


History shows that the real but then was that Italy invaded Greece and did not know how to do anything. Germany had to put things on hold to clean up that clusterfrick giving the Soviet's time to reinforce.

Italy saved the world from Germany ridding the world of communists.
Posted by teke184
Zachary, LA
Member since Jan 2007
105178 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:13 am to
Lots of that going on.

The Germans had to send Rommel to North Africa to take control because the Italians couldn’t kick the Brits out of Egypt.
Posted by oleheat
Sportsman's Paradise
Member since Mar 2007
14866 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:14 am to
In my amateur opinion, it was hard to say who was more arrogant- the Germans or the Japanese.

Hitler didn't want America in the war until 1946 (he was fearful of the industrial might- and was right)- but the Japanese killed any chances of that scenario coming to fruition.

It took a while- but America's uninterrupted material manufacturing power was the death of them both.
Posted by TigerFanInSouthland
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
28065 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:14 am to
Germany was fettered to corpses in both World Wars. Austria-Hungary in the First and Italy in the Second.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17232 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:15 am to
quote:

In Goring’s defense, I don’t think he predicted the invention of radar which allowed the Brits to intercept German planes.


Exactly. Radar was an absolute game changer. Even with the radar, the Germans were on course to winning the battle, albeit with significantly higher losses than they had anticipated, until Hitler's call to change strategy to city bombing. The RAF was on the ropes and Hitler let them off the mat and they'd never be in such a position of desperation again.

The Battle of Britain also exposed the weaknesses of the Luftwaffe. They were not tailored for strategic bombing. The Stukas and BF-110's took enormous losses in the Battle of Britain as they were totally unsuited for the task asked of them.
Posted by The Boat
Member since Oct 2008
178333 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:17 am to
Barbarossa failed for a couple of main reasons. First was Mussolini was a dumbass and Italy was getting their arse kicked in the Balkans. So Hitler had to invade to secure his southern flank and save Italy. That pushed the start date back. Then after Barbarossa started Army Group South was moving slowly so Hitler diverted men south to help them push through Ukraine. That delayed the move to Moscow. Both events killed precious time that likely would have allowed them to reach Moscow before they froze over.
Posted by zatetic
Member since Nov 2015
5677 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:18 am to
No doubt about that. The pause happened because Germany was worried if they didn't clean up the Italian mess in Greece (and potential allies) would just keep going northward and cut their supply lines for Russia.
Posted by rt3
now in the piney woods of Pineville
Member since Apr 2011
148006 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:20 am to
quote:

In my amateur opinion, it was hard to say who was more arrogant- the Germans or the Japanese.

Hitler didn't want America in the war until 1946 (he was fearful of the industrial might- and was right)- but the Japanese killed any chances of that scenario coming to fruition.

It took a while- but America's uninterrupted material manufacturing power was the death of them both.

Hitler didn't HAVE to declare war on the USA after the US declared war on Japan

he could've "technically" still kept the USA out of Europe (yes I know realistically the US had already been in Europe)
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17232 posts
Posted on 6/22/18 at 11:21 am to
quote:

In my amateur opinion, it was hard to say who was more arrogant- the Germans or the Japanese.


Actually there was tremendous trepidation amongst the Japanese leadership about going to war with the United States. They felt as though they either had to risk it or their entire position in China was likely to be lost.
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