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re: 77 Years Ago Today: Operation Barbarossa
Posted on 6/22/18 at 2:24 pm to rt3
Posted on 6/22/18 at 2:24 pm to rt3
quote:
the Germans got to well within range of Moscow... some even saying they could see the golden domes of the Kremlin
Who’s to say Moscow doesn’t end like Stalingrad? And if Moscow is taken, then what?
quote:
but then... Hitler just NEEDED to take control of Stalingrad even though it had no real tactical importance... only b/c of the city's name
Taking Stalingrad was crucial to controlling the Volga. It was a major strongpoint. Even if they could’ve taken control of the river from the south, Stalingrad would’ve acted as a major hub to move supplies and personnel in and out of the frontlines as well as being a perfect staging area. Heavy bombing would have only done so much. The city had to be taken to control the river.
quote:
stay focused on Moscow instead of getting distracted by Stalingrad and who knows how the war turns out
Germany still runs out of oil and gets stomped eventually.
quote:
Stalingrad ended up being the first major German defeat of the war overall... certainly turned the war on the Eastern Front into the USSR's favor
There were many more opportunities to win the East. Failing to capture Stalingrad was a major blow but later defeats were more costly.
If Germany had been able to deny Russia the Volga and capture the oil fields completely, who knows what could’ve happened. Germany was desperate for oil when Barbarossa commenced and it only got worse when they didn’t focus on capturing oil fields.
1
Posted on 6/22/18 at 2:44 pm to beerJeep
If Hitler wouldn't have gone after Stalingrad, he would have been able to kill more Russians.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 3:11 pm to rt3
quote:
but they got work from the Far east that Japan had no plans for Russia
Why would they?
The only thing they may have wanted would be to take the port of Vladivostok as a defensive measure but it’s not like they could have done anything after that.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 3:19 pm to beerJeep
A German journalist in Japan, Richard Sorge, was working for the Soviets. In marathon drinking sessions with Japanese Foreign Ministry officials, he learned that Japan had no intention of attacking Russia, thus allowing Stalin to focus entirely on the German attck.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 3:27 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
A German journalist in Japan, Richard Sorge, was working for the Soviets. In marathon drinking sessions with Japanese Foreign Ministry officials, he learned that Japan had no intention of attacking Russia, thus allowing Stalin to focus entirely on the German attck
If i remember correctly the Soviets has a very effective spy in Japan that went by the codename “Lucy”.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 3:29 pm to Scoop
quote:
Why would they?
The only thing they may have wanted would be to take the port of Vladivostok as a defensive measure but it’s not like they could have done anything after that.
Japan and Russia had a long simmering conflict over the Mongolia-Siberia border, as well as ownership of the Sakhalin Islands, and fought a brief, but very bloody war in 1939. The Japanese got their asses kicked, which made them reluctant to take on Russia again. It also resulted in their turning their attention toward the Pacific and away from further expansion into the Asian land mass.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 3:31 pm to Darth_Vader
They had a whole network codenamed Red Orchestra.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 3:45 pm to Jim Rockford
I’m aware of that. I was speaking more to the strategic situation in 1941 as the table was being set for the big show in the Pacific, not the isolated conflict between Japan and Russia earlier.
My point was that the only strategic interest in the Soviet Union that the Japanese might have had was to shut off the port at Vladivostok. If they did do that, that’s all they could have done because it’s not like Japan could have staged from there any kind of mechanized inland incursion into Russia.
My point was that the only strategic interest in the Soviet Union that the Japanese might have had was to shut off the port at Vladivostok. If they did do that, that’s all they could have done because it’s not like Japan could have staged from there any kind of mechanized inland incursion into Russia.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 4:29 pm to Darth_Vader
The "Beast from the East"
Ilyushin IL-2 Sturmovik
Didn't help mein ground-based re-supply efforts....
German ground forces called it "Black Death" and "Flying Tank" and the Luftwaffe swore it was made out of cement.
One Hell of a warbird.
6 min video on it's role on the Eastern Front
Ilyushin IL-2 Sturmovik
Didn't help mein ground-based re-supply efforts....
German ground forces called it "Black Death" and "Flying Tank" and the Luftwaffe swore it was made out of cement.
One Hell of a warbird.
6 min video on it's role on the Eastern Front
Posted on 6/22/18 at 4:46 pm to Scoop
quote:
I’m aware of that. I was speaking more to the strategic situation in 1941 as the table was being set for the big show in the Pacific, not the isolated conflict between Japan and Russia earlier.
My point was that the only strategic interest in the Soviet Union that the Japanese might have had was to shut off the port at Vladivostok. If they did do that, that’s all they could have done because it’s not like Japan could have staged from there any kind of mechanized inland incursion into Russia.
the point being made is that the USSR had special Siberian forces (who are specialized in winter fighting) holed up there just in case Japan tried some kind of offensive against the Soviets
when Stalin finally got that word he trusted that the Japanese definitely had no plans to attack them... that released those Siberian forces to fight the Germans... and those forces proved pivotal in the battle against the Nazis
Posted on 6/22/18 at 4:48 pm to Darth_Vader
Crazy to think that many people died, and most of them were men. Had to be hell on the DNA pool.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 5:02 pm to Darth_Vader
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/22/18 at 6:00 pm
Posted on 6/22/18 at 5:18 pm to Darth_Vader
Interesting info but I can't stop thinking of this guy when i read your title
Posted on 6/22/18 at 6:15 pm to Jimmy2shoes
Anyone else get sad when they’re watching WWII docs and the Germans get turned away at Moscow?
Posted on 6/22/18 at 6:23 pm to Darth_Vader
Darth, looking for a good book about battle of the bulge, any recs?
Posted on 6/22/18 at 6:28 pm to rmnldr
quote:
And if Moscow is taken, then what?
I do not see Stalin staying in power if Moscow is taken. that would cause infighting between the topParty people like Molotov or Beria and top Army guys like Timoshenko or Zhukov.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 6:43 pm to Swoopin
quote:
Never understood why the Germans thought they could fight on so many fronts simultaneously. Cocky SOBs
They likely would have succeeded if the US didn't enter the war
Posted on 6/22/18 at 6:53 pm to ornagestorm
quote:
I do not see Stalin staying in power if Moscow is taken. that would cause infighting between the topParty people like Molotov or Beria and top Army guys like Timoshenko or Zhukov.
That's interesting to think about. In that case, do you think the Union survives?
Posted on 6/22/18 at 6:59 pm to rmnldr
quote:
n that case, do you think the Union survives?
Probably not, different chucks would break off (a bit like they did in the 90s); also, the Germans would interfere enough to keep them fighting amongst themselves. It would be alot better for them if the USSR is broken up into a bunch of smaller countries that are fighting each other.
Posted on 6/22/18 at 8:28 pm to ornagestorm
Generals January and February took over and that was that. Germans were not prepared for the Russian winter, many froze to death.
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