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re: 158 years ago this evening, Stonewall Jackson was shot by his own men...
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:06 am to ZULU
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:06 am to ZULU
quote:
Need to put a monument there.
There are two monuments to the incident just inside the tree line. You can't see them from the highway but they are there.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:08 am to HeadSlash
quote:
Romantic sentiment. The South had no chance in a protracted conflict. The North's advantage in population and industrial might was to great to overcome.
I believe this is correct.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:14 am to Tornado Alley
The idea was NOT to fight a protracted conflict. but to win a battle and break the North's will to fight. There was merit in this strategy, riots in the big cities and considerable opposition to the war.
Say, for instance, Lee listens to Longstreet and does NOT fight at Gettysburg, but does much as Newt Gingrich writes in his alternate history book, flanks Meade and wins. Pemberton in the meantime had filled his warehouses and hangs on at Vicksburg. It is possible Lincoln at that point could have been forced to sue for peace.
Say, for instance, Lee listens to Longstreet and does NOT fight at Gettysburg, but does much as Newt Gingrich writes in his alternate history book, flanks Meade and wins. Pemberton in the meantime had filled his warehouses and hangs on at Vicksburg. It is possible Lincoln at that point could have been forced to sue for peace.
This post was edited on 5/3/21 at 11:16 am
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:18 am to antibarner
quote:
The idea was NOT to fight a protracted conflict. but to win a battle and break the North's will to fight. There was merit in this strategy, riots in the big cities and considerable opposition to the war.
I believe this is correct too.
quote:
It is possible Lincoln at that point could have been forced to sue for peace
Lincoln was never going to sue for peace.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:20 am to RollTide1987
Lee wanted to fight Meade that is correct. The reason is to force the north to negotiate after a victory on northern soil. If Meade abandons the field at Gettysburg, Lee could get a “ victory “ by moving against a population center. Meade would have tremendous pressure to pursue. Lee threatening Philly could have been a trigger to help force a peace. Obviously all speculation but I think it has some merit.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:30 am to Yaz 8
quote:
If Meade abandons the field at Gettysburg, Lee could get a “ victory “ by moving against a population center. Meade would have tremendous pressure to pursue.
Lee was not about to do that after so much bloodshed. The first day of the Battle of Gettysburg wasn't some skirmish. It involved some 44,000 troops and saw over 16,000 men become casualties of war. Add in a hypothetical attack on Cemetery Hill that succeeds in seizing the high ground and you're looking at a butcher's bill between 20,000-25,000 men for July 1, 1863 alone.
Lee's #1 goal was the destruction of the Army of the Potomac. Lee was aggressive by nature and no doubt would have sensed blood in the water after a battle like that. So he would have pursued Meade in an effort to finish the job rather than play the long game and disappear into the Pennsylvania countryside.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:33 am to Penrod
quote:
The asymmetry in factories, etc meant it was a matter of time.
While this is true, its also true time was not a friend to the North. If Stonewall survived, it is arguable that his skills could have continued to bleed the norths ranks enough for the general public to lose interest in continuing the fight.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:35 am to Tornado Alley
quote:
Lincoln was never going to sue for peace.
Lincoln wasn’t guaranteed to be re-elected either.
If the South is more successful, less and less northerners support the war. They vote someone else in office. It was unlikely but possible for the south to win, but not tactically or strategically.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:38 am to RollTide1987
I don’t necessarily agree. His goal was to “win”. If it was destruction of the army great. If he could force a peace without that he may have done so. He felt compelled to do so at Gettysburg after the events of day 1 and 2. If it unfolds differently with Jackson he could have reacted differently. It is really a fascinating what if.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:41 am to Yaz 8
“Let us cross the river and rest beneath the shade of the trees “ final words of Stonewall Jackson. .
Kind of sad we don’t talk like that anymore
Kind of sad we don’t talk like that anymore
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:45 am to Yaz 8
quote:
His goal was to “win”.
No, his goal was the destruction of the Union Army of the Potomac. He said this before, during, and after the campaign. The whole point of marching into Pennsylvania was to get the Army of the Potomac out of Virginia and into the open.
His idea of winning was the destruction of his opponent. He never once put stock in the foreign recognition angle or relied solely on the growing Northern peace movement. He knew both were possibilities that could aid his cause but he never put all of his chips into those baskets. He knew the only surefire way of ending the war with a Confederate victory was the destruction of the army that had been tasked to destroy him.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 11:53 am to RollTide1987
His goal wasn’t to win the war? To obtain independence? I just can’t agree with that. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 12:09 pm to Yaz 8
You are being willfully obtuse and are attempting to apply your own thinking to the man. Yes, Lee's goal was to win the war. Yes, Lee's goal was to gain independence. The surest way he could see those goals met was the destruction of the Army of the Potomac in a singular battle of decision. This doesn't take any theorizing to deduce. Lee's own words - both written and oral - bear this belief out. His main objective for the Pennsylvania campaign was to draw the Union army out of Virginia and into the open where it could be destroyed.
All of his subordinate commanders knew this. There never was any doubt or question as to what the campaign's endgame was. Threatening or taking a state capital was always a secondary mission. That's why Ewell abandoned offensive operations against Harrisburg (the capital of Pennsylvania) when Lee told him that the Union army was coming north to do battle with them.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 12:11 pm to RollTide1987
quote:Correct. It was a Napoleonic warfare concept that was rooted in the time and culture. He did not (unfortunately) understand modern war, that he was fighting for the will of the citizens who had remained in the Union.
No, his goal was the destruction of the Union Army of the Potomac.
War is a trial of moral and physical forces by means of the latter. . . In the last analysis it is at moral, not physical strength that all military action is directed … Moral factors, then, are the ultimate determinants in war.
Carl von Clausewitz
When Grant assumed command of all Union forces that was the same mandate Lincoln gave to him, follow Lee (nominally through the efforts of Meade) and destroy the Army of Northern Virginia (Lincoln correctly understood that his army was the center of gravity for the South).
Posted on 5/3/21 at 12:11 pm to Hester Carries
quote:
If Stonewall doesnt die, the CSA wins the war (
No just no the Union was far stronger and far more advanced than the CSA. The best the CSA could up for is be enough of a pest for the Union that they come to a cease fire
Posted on 5/3/21 at 12:46 pm to RollTide1987
I’m not attempting to be obtuse. I just think there was a different way this could have played out. Sorry if you don’t agree. Anyway fun discussion
Posted on 5/3/21 at 1:19 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
People say the Confederate army could have marched on Washington, D.C. after their victory at First Manassas. What they fail to take into account is that the Confederates were just as exhausted and disorganized in victory as the Union was in defeat. They had also just gotten done fighting the largest and bloodiest battle in American history up to that point in time. The psychological shock alone must have been crazy.
Exactly
Look at the Union army and even with superior numbers they were too exhausted after Gettysburg to remain in contact with Lee and crush him and end the war right there in Pa.
These huge battles grinder up men. Entire armies were worn down. The winners suffered huge numbers of casualties. Thousands of rounded were left to be cared for on each side.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 1:28 pm to doubleb
quote:I am going to have to disagree with you on this. Meade had sufficient combat power available to him that had not been decisively engaged in the fight. And Lee was (temporarily - up to three days) unable to cross the Potomac due to rains and flooding. The Union senior military leadership lacked the will to complete the task. Lincoln was livid with Meade over this failure. When Grant was finally appointed the overall commanding general he instilled that sense of urgency in their leadership.
Look at the Union army and even with superior numbers they were too exhausted after Gettysburg to remain in contact with Lee and crush him and end the war right there in Pa.
This post was edited on 5/3/21 at 2:16 pm
Posted on 5/3/21 at 1:36 pm to Penrod
quote:
Absurd! The CSA had no chance against the USA. The asymmetry in factories, etc meant it was a matter of time. Their ports were blockaded, and they had no means to sustain themselves in a protracted war.
Agreed, if the North decided to go all in there wouldn’t be any question they win. The south really never stood a chance even though they put up a valiant fight.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 1:40 pm to DavidTheGnome
quote:
The south really never stood a chance even though they put up a valiant fight.
State's rights meant a lot to them.
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