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re: 158 years ago this evening, Stonewall Jackson was shot by his own men...
Posted on 5/3/21 at 2:08 pm to Yaz 8
Posted on 5/3/21 at 2:08 pm to Yaz 8
You did not have to totally defeat the Union militarily to win. Just win enough battles to break their will, and Lincoln loses re election.
War over.
War over.
This post was edited on 5/3/21 at 2:10 pm
2
Posted on 5/3/21 at 2:16 pm to upgrade
quote:
Lincoln wasn’t guaranteed to be re-elected either.
If the South is more successful, less and less northerners support the war. They vote someone else in office. It was unlikely but possible for the south to win, but not tactically or strategically.
This is also correct. Didn’t McClellan run on a campaign to end the war?
This post was edited on 5/3/21 at 2:17 pm
Posted on 5/3/21 at 2:17 pm to antibarner
quote:This is what we miss. The political aspect. Lincoln did not believe he was going to win the 1864 election. And if he had not there was a good chance the will to keep the Union together ends with his administration.
Lincoln loses re election
Posted on 5/3/21 at 2:19 pm to Tornado Alley
quote:Yes.
Didn’t McClellan run on a campaign to end the war?
And on a side note, there were accusations made that while in command of the Army of the Potomac he did not prosecute the war with vigor because of his sympathies with the South.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 2:20 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
This is what we miss. The political aspect. Lincoln did not believe he was going to win the 1864 election. And if he had not there was a good chance the will to keep the Union together ends with his administration.
Lincoln has Sherman to thank for his re-election. The timing of Sherman taking Atlanta couldn’t have been better.
This post was edited on 5/3/21 at 2:21 pm
Posted on 5/3/21 at 2:22 pm to Tornado Alley
quote:Absolutely agree.
The timing of Sherman taking Atlanta couldn’t have been better.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 2:28 pm to geauxbrown
DC was the most fortified city in the world at the time of Gettysburg. Lee could've laid seige but Meade would have annihilated him . Lee would have gotten bogged down with 75K men pursuing him into a bottleneck.
Lee had one opportunity but DC was not it.If Lee were smart he should have continued his right turn and headed for Philadelphia. But, Lee's army was in no condition to go any further. The Union would have cut him off from behind.Cut his supply lines and either destroyed him or starved him. Gettysburg was truly a ban situation. Meade was shadowing him the entire time. It was the fact that Meade was waiting for reinforcements that got delayed is what saved Lee and Longstreet.
Lee had one opportunity but DC was not it.If Lee were smart he should have continued his right turn and headed for Philadelphia. But, Lee's army was in no condition to go any further. The Union would have cut him off from behind.Cut his supply lines and either destroyed him or starved him. Gettysburg was truly a ban situation. Meade was shadowing him the entire time. It was the fact that Meade was waiting for reinforcements that got delayed is what saved Lee and Longstreet.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 2:34 pm to antibarner
quote:
The idea was NOT to fight a protracted conflict. but to win a battle and break the North's will to fight. There was merit in this strategy, riots in the big cities and considerable opposition to the war.
The same strategy the Japanese used in WWII.
quote:
Say, for instance, Lee listens to Longstreet and does NOT fight at Gettysburg, but does much as Newt Gingrich writes in his alternate history book, flanks Meade and wins. Pemberton in the meantime had filled his warehouses and hangs on at Vicksburg. It is possible Lincoln at that point could have been forced to sue for peace.
How big were these warehouses? How many years of food could they hold?
Posted on 5/3/21 at 3:37 pm to doubleb
Grant would have set up seige and when he had a enough would have made Vicksburg a memory....a mere rumor. What Southern apologists don't understand is that the Union fought the Civil War with one hand behind its back. Grant did not give Pemberton time to do anything but what he did. Grant was disrupting supply lines even before the seige began.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 3:41 pm to AlonsoWDC
quote:
You just hate to see it.
Modern day melts over confederacy scum getting torched to the ground are some of my favorite melts.
This post was edited on 5/4/21 at 9:17 am
Posted on 5/3/21 at 3:49 pm to KiwiHead
This thread is making me want to fire up Ken Burns documentary. Shame they took it off Netflix
Posted on 5/3/21 at 4:03 pm to tWildcat
quote:
It always amazes me how some people can pass by an area unaware of the historical significance that place has in history. Like the white car in that photo, they may not even know that’s where a huge moment in the civil war occurred. I’m sure I’m guilty of this as well.
Loved living near Norfolk, VA for just this reason. The stuff that had happened on the ground you were now walking being so interesting and significant to U.S. history. Really cool to stop and consider
Posted on 5/3/21 at 4:16 pm to KiwiHead
[quote]
Grant would have set up seige and when he had a enough would have made Vicksburg a memory....a mere rumor. What Southern apologists don't understand is that the Union fought the Civil War with one hand behind its back. Grant did not give Pemberton time to do anything but what he did. Grant was disrupting supply lines even before the seige began.
[/quote
The Rebels in Vicksburg were eventually going to run out of food one way or another. That was apparent. Grant wasn’t letting anything in or out,
It was always going to be a matter of time. The Rebs at Port Hudson knew that so once Vicksburg quit, they quit. The end was obvious.
The war continued for almost two years and looking back, after that July men really fought and died when the war had already been settled. They just didn’t know it.
Grant would have set up seige and when he had a enough would have made Vicksburg a memory....a mere rumor. What Southern apologists don't understand is that the Union fought the Civil War with one hand behind its back. Grant did not give Pemberton time to do anything but what he did. Grant was disrupting supply lines even before the seige began.
[/quote
The Rebels in Vicksburg were eventually going to run out of food one way or another. That was apparent. Grant wasn’t letting anything in or out,
It was always going to be a matter of time. The Rebs at Port Hudson knew that so once Vicksburg quit, they quit. The end was obvious.
The war continued for almost two years and looking back, after that July men really fought and died when the war had already been settled. They just didn’t know it.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 7:07 pm to doubleb
The Vicksburg and Gettysburg results were simultaneous. Had Lee defeated Meade and at the same time Grant continued to be bogged down with no end in sight the North 's will to go on may have been broken at that point.
Grant may never have broken into those works and Pemberton had done little to prepare for a siege. He didn't need to hold out for years. Just been smarter. Evacuated his non combatants and laid in supplies.
Who's to say after Meade was beaten...Longstreet's First Corps goes west? Or perhaps a large part of the Army of Northern Virginia to relieve Vicksburg? Joe Johnston had scraped up 30-35k men..suddenly here's Pete Longstreet with 25k more or even Lee himself with 50 or 60.
Now Ulysses has a real problem. He's laying siege to Vicksburg and now he could have an army at his back of almost 100k with Robert E Lee at the head of it.
Grant may never have broken into those works and Pemberton had done little to prepare for a siege. He didn't need to hold out for years. Just been smarter. Evacuated his non combatants and laid in supplies.
Who's to say after Meade was beaten...Longstreet's First Corps goes west? Or perhaps a large part of the Army of Northern Virginia to relieve Vicksburg? Joe Johnston had scraped up 30-35k men..suddenly here's Pete Longstreet with 25k more or even Lee himself with 50 or 60.
Now Ulysses has a real problem. He's laying siege to Vicksburg and now he could have an army at his back of almost 100k with Robert E Lee at the head of it.
This post was edited on 5/3/21 at 7:18 pm
Posted on 5/3/21 at 7:15 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
Meade had sufficient combat power available to him that had not been decisively engaged in the fight. And Lee was (temporarily - up to three days) unable to cross the Potomac due to rains and flooding. The Union senior military leadership lacked the will to complete the task.
In their defense, everyone from the highest echelons of command to the lowliest private was freaking exhausted by mid-July. Meade took command of the Army of the Potomac just three days before the battle kicked off and had been in crisis mode ever since. The guy was probably being driven to the edge of mental endurance. Not only that, he was down three corps commanders and multiple division and brigade commanders.
I think the psychological situation both armies were going through in the days and weeks after Gettysburg doesn't get talked about often enough. They had just been through the bloodiest battle in American history after having marched well over 150 miles to get there. Now they were marching back to Virginia, in driving rainstorms, after having fought a major battle. Neither army was in a condition to fight.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 7:46 pm to RollTide1987
I agree with everything you said. As a senior Army officer, I cannot imagine the stress placed upon Meade (who thought he was being arrested the day he received his appointment to command) as he arrived on the field early in the morning of July 2nd. Every time I watch this video clip and envision myself in his position with the circumstances he inherited I am overwhelmed.
“I hope to God this is good ground.”
The problem is, that is what all of the Union commanders (less Grant) had suffered from up to that point. The inability to deliver the coup de main, to envision and act upon the schwerpunkt. Lincoln sternly dressed down Meade after the conclusion of Gettysburg but later softened his language.
I have my own personal (Christian) convictions as to why the war went on for two more years. But he had a responsibility to destroy Lee while he was still in the North and he did not.
ETA: For clarification, Lincoln expressed his displeasure to Halleck (who is another point of discussion) who conveyed it to Meade. He also wrote a letter which he did not deliver to Meade and later softened his entire stance on the matter.
“I hope to God this is good ground.”
The problem is, that is what all of the Union commanders (less Grant) had suffered from up to that point. The inability to deliver the coup de main, to envision and act upon the schwerpunkt. Lincoln sternly dressed down Meade after the conclusion of Gettysburg but later softened his language.
I have my own personal (Christian) convictions as to why the war went on for two more years. But he had a responsibility to destroy Lee while he was still in the North and he did not.
ETA: For clarification, Lincoln expressed his displeasure to Halleck (who is another point of discussion) who conveyed it to Meade. He also wrote a letter which he did not deliver to Meade and later softened his entire stance on the matter.
This post was edited on 5/3/21 at 7:56 pm
Posted on 5/3/21 at 7:46 pm to RollTide1987
It was counted as a COIVD death.
Posted on 5/3/21 at 10:12 pm to Penrod
In retrospect, the only real chance the Confederacy had to win the war was early on at the First Battle of Manasus. The damn yankees had thrown down their weapons and were running back to Washington. General Jackson wanted to cross the Potomac and go right into Washington and go for the kill right then and there. The yankees didn't want to fight. They would have kicked that piece of shite Lincoln to the curb and sued for peace. But Lee said no. Things would have been much better for everybody. This country wouldn't be in the shape it's in now if the Confederacy had won. A confederation is the best form of government. Switzerland is a testament to that.
This post was edited on 5/3/21 at 10:17 pm
Posted on 5/4/21 at 12:04 am to CedarChest
quote:Lee was not at First Manassas. He was the military advisor to Jefferson Davis at the time and had no influence on the decision to pursue or not pursue on that day.
But Lee said no.
Posted on 5/4/21 at 2:30 am to Wolfhound45
quote:Well, somebody did.
Lee was not at First Manassas. He was the military advisor to Jefferson Davis at the time and had no influence on the decision to pursue or not pursue on that day.
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