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Message
The case for keeping Jaxson Hayes
Posted on 7/9/22 at 8:50 am
Posted on 7/9/22 at 8:50 am
There are certainly reasons that many of us want to trade Jaxson right now:
* He has not demonstrated the focus and work ethic that we'd like to see.
* In the wake of his arrest and guilty plea, there are obvious concerns about his character
* He's demonstrated a lack of maturity in other ways, including his rookie-season video telling the league to suck his d*ck.
* The development that we actually have seen from Jaxson has not been in the skills where we most need to see improvement: guarding bigs in the post, and defensive rebounding.
* Jaxson generally lacks physical toughness. How many times, for example, have you seen him take a charge? Notwithstanding the LeBron shove at the end of the season, Jaxson's fouls are usually not of the physical kind -- they are more likely to be because he couldn't keep his arms vertical.
* I personally believe that he has cussed out coaches and generally been resistant to coaching, which is why two different head coaches in the last two years have flat-out benched him for a while.
_____________________________________________________
I completely understand those concerns. I've said before that I dislike Jaxson as a person. But I want to make the case why, despite all of that, I don't think that we should trade him right now:
* Jaxson is still only making a little over $6 million this season, and it's very unlikely that we could get another rotational big of similar skill for less money.
* If we trade him now (and assuming that we don't get a big back in return), then we would lack depth, as our only proven bigs would be Zion, JV, Billy, and Nance. Yes, we can be hopeful that EJ will prove to be a rotational PF, and we can hope that Trey can play that position, but it's unwise to depend on a 2nd-round rookie, and Trey's physical growth has meant that he's still rather skinny to face a real pounding in the post, and he wasn't successful in that role last season.
* Jaxson just turned 22, has still not been playing basketball for very long, and still has enormous potential. Perhaps, knowing that he's going into a contract season, he's working out harder this summer than he has in previous offseasons.
* Jaxson has developed and improved each season. When we first got him, for example, he clearly didn't know if dribbling was actually allowed, and now his handle is quite decent for a big guy. He's obviously improved his shooting and has nice touch on shots 4-6 feet from the basket. Shooting 35% from 3 last season on a real number of attempts indicates that continued improvement from deep could make him a real weapon on the outside. Jaxson's perimeter defense also took a huge leap forward this past season.
* There's real potential for synergy with Zion on the floor. Two years ago, both of them were such poor defenders that it was hard to play them together in SVG's defensive scheme, but I think Zion will be a much better defender now, and Jaxson has also improved on that end of the floor. That may allow Willie Green to play them together and exploit the athletic advantages we'll have over other teams. Jaxson's biggest advantage on offense is as a roll man, and Zion initiating the pick-and-roll with Jaxson might simply be unstoppable. Jaxson's other big plus is his ability to run, and Zion also obviously excels in transition. I'm just seeing these plays in my head where Herb or Jose gets a steal, passes it forward to Zion, who draws the defender and throws it up for Jaxson to slam down -- those plays are already fun to watch in my head, even if I haven't seen them yet in real life. And if his 3-pt shot develops? Then, he can really help with our spacing for Zion.
* We might want to keep Jaxson next season. I simply do not understand all the people saying that we can't afford to re-sign him, so we should trade him now. First of all, Jaxson does not have a large trade value right now. And if he doesn't improve much, then he isn't going to command a lot on the market next offseason and we could probably afford to re-sign him. If he does improve a lot, then he's a powerful trade chip at the deadline, and he'd then easily be worth his $9.1 million qualifying offer. Maybe we're going into the tax next season, and we don't know how much the cap is going up in any case. Jaxson would be a RFA, so we'd certainly have the ability to match, and RFAs in his price range often don't even get offers if other teams think that we'll just match.
TLDR: I don't want us to trade Jaxson now. To make room for EJ, we're better off keeping Jaxson for now and instead waiving Temple, or else trading a Graham/Temple, Temple/Kira, or Graham/Kira combo.
* He has not demonstrated the focus and work ethic that we'd like to see.
* In the wake of his arrest and guilty plea, there are obvious concerns about his character
* He's demonstrated a lack of maturity in other ways, including his rookie-season video telling the league to suck his d*ck.
* The development that we actually have seen from Jaxson has not been in the skills where we most need to see improvement: guarding bigs in the post, and defensive rebounding.
* Jaxson generally lacks physical toughness. How many times, for example, have you seen him take a charge? Notwithstanding the LeBron shove at the end of the season, Jaxson's fouls are usually not of the physical kind -- they are more likely to be because he couldn't keep his arms vertical.
* I personally believe that he has cussed out coaches and generally been resistant to coaching, which is why two different head coaches in the last two years have flat-out benched him for a while.
_____________________________________________________
I completely understand those concerns. I've said before that I dislike Jaxson as a person. But I want to make the case why, despite all of that, I don't think that we should trade him right now:
* Jaxson is still only making a little over $6 million this season, and it's very unlikely that we could get another rotational big of similar skill for less money.
* If we trade him now (and assuming that we don't get a big back in return), then we would lack depth, as our only proven bigs would be Zion, JV, Billy, and Nance. Yes, we can be hopeful that EJ will prove to be a rotational PF, and we can hope that Trey can play that position, but it's unwise to depend on a 2nd-round rookie, and Trey's physical growth has meant that he's still rather skinny to face a real pounding in the post, and he wasn't successful in that role last season.
* Jaxson just turned 22, has still not been playing basketball for very long, and still has enormous potential. Perhaps, knowing that he's going into a contract season, he's working out harder this summer than he has in previous offseasons.
* Jaxson has developed and improved each season. When we first got him, for example, he clearly didn't know if dribbling was actually allowed, and now his handle is quite decent for a big guy. He's obviously improved his shooting and has nice touch on shots 4-6 feet from the basket. Shooting 35% from 3 last season on a real number of attempts indicates that continued improvement from deep could make him a real weapon on the outside. Jaxson's perimeter defense also took a huge leap forward this past season.
* There's real potential for synergy with Zion on the floor. Two years ago, both of them were such poor defenders that it was hard to play them together in SVG's defensive scheme, but I think Zion will be a much better defender now, and Jaxson has also improved on that end of the floor. That may allow Willie Green to play them together and exploit the athletic advantages we'll have over other teams. Jaxson's biggest advantage on offense is as a roll man, and Zion initiating the pick-and-roll with Jaxson might simply be unstoppable. Jaxson's other big plus is his ability to run, and Zion also obviously excels in transition. I'm just seeing these plays in my head where Herb or Jose gets a steal, passes it forward to Zion, who draws the defender and throws it up for Jaxson to slam down -- those plays are already fun to watch in my head, even if I haven't seen them yet in real life. And if his 3-pt shot develops? Then, he can really help with our spacing for Zion.
* We might want to keep Jaxson next season. I simply do not understand all the people saying that we can't afford to re-sign him, so we should trade him now. First of all, Jaxson does not have a large trade value right now. And if he doesn't improve much, then he isn't going to command a lot on the market next offseason and we could probably afford to re-sign him. If he does improve a lot, then he's a powerful trade chip at the deadline, and he'd then easily be worth his $9.1 million qualifying offer. Maybe we're going into the tax next season, and we don't know how much the cap is going up in any case. Jaxson would be a RFA, so we'd certainly have the ability to match, and RFAs in his price range often don't even get offers if other teams think that we'll just match.
TLDR: I don't want us to trade Jaxson now. To make room for EJ, we're better off keeping Jaxson for now and instead waiving Temple, or else trading a Graham/Temple, Temple/Kira, or Graham/Kira combo.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 8:56 am to GOP_Tiger
it doesnt matter what he does this year, we're not paying him 20 million and that's what he'll get on the open market next year. he needs to be traded
This post was edited on 7/9/22 at 8:57 am
Posted on 7/9/22 at 9:07 am to geauxtigers87
quote:
that's what he'll get on the open market next year.
No thats not what he will get as of now.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 9:11 am to GOP_Tiger
good post
Jax is infuriating which is why opinions are polarized. I do t think you have to worry about him being traded though, he will be on the team and getting minutes until the deadline at which time his bed will be made one way or another
Jax is infuriating which is why opinions are polarized. I do t think you have to worry about him being traded though, he will be on the team and getting minutes until the deadline at which time his bed will be made one way or another
Posted on 7/9/22 at 9:17 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
but I think Zion will be a much better defender now
Based on?
Posted on 7/9/22 at 9:23 am to jmcwhrter
Based on Zion having more experience, being in better shape, and not hating Willie Green's guts the way everyone hated SVG. Also, the entire team's defensive focus is better with Herb and Jose setting the tone on the perimeter, instead of Eric Bledsoe waving opponents past like a bullfighter.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 9:25 am to jmcwhrter
If the price is right for a potential Hayes trade, I would take it in a heartbeat. This could be said about most players.
I would definitely listen to any and all offers for Hayes. I would not trade him just to get him off our roster for a "bad" deal.
I would definitely listen to any and all offers for Hayes. I would not trade him just to get him off our roster for a "bad" deal.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 9:35 am to GOP_Tiger
There’s no option where we keep him. You don’t understand the NBA.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 9:38 am to GOP_Tiger
Hayes has the freakish athleticism to be a real rim runner in the NBA. Remember the spurt against the suns where he just kept running the floor and getting easy dunks? If he can do that then he is definitely worth his current price tag. Not sure that skill set is available somewhere else right now. But if his other problems begin to outweigh his limited abilities, then frick him.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 9:54 am to geauxtigers87
Pretty much this.
He is going to command far more than he is worth to us.
That means our options are-
Trade him now
Sign and trade next offseason
Match his offer next offseason then be stuck with him at least one more season
Honestly? Unless we see him making a HUGE jump this season, I say to cut bait now and look into using Trey, Nance, and EJ to fill his minutes.
He is going to command far more than he is worth to us.
That means our options are-
Trade him now
Sign and trade next offseason
Match his offer next offseason then be stuck with him at least one more season
Honestly? Unless we see him making a HUGE jump this season, I say to cut bait now and look into using Trey, Nance, and EJ to fill his minutes.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:07 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Based on Zion having more experience,
More experience doing what?
He hasn't played or practiced with the team in forever .. he literally has no more experience today than he did 18 months ago
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:07 am to tibebecolston
quote:
There’s no option where we keep him. You don’t understand the NBA.
Please educate me. That's part of what this board is for -- us helping each other.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:09 am to GOP_Tiger
I don’t necessarily think any point the OP made is wrong, but honestly the only want that is relevant to me is the depth one, and I’m not sure how much I actually agree with that. But you even touched on the points of why I would be hesitant there.
But with all that said, and the reason I don’t have any real attachment to Jax, is because of the point you made about the skills he has developed just don’t really matter at the end of the day. The things that will keep him on the floor, the things that would have made him a non-liability in the play-in games or the Phoenix series he just hasn’t developed. I’m just not interested in paying a guy that hasn’t shown any signs of being able to consistently impact games that matter.
And quite honestly, I really think Liddell will do to Jax as Jose did to Kira. It won’t take long for him to surpass him.
But with all that said, and the reason I don’t have any real attachment to Jax, is because of the point you made about the skills he has developed just don’t really matter at the end of the day. The things that will keep him on the floor, the things that would have made him a non-liability in the play-in games or the Phoenix series he just hasn’t developed. I’m just not interested in paying a guy that hasn’t shown any signs of being able to consistently impact games that matter.
And quite honestly, I really think Liddell will do to Jax as Jose did to Kira. It won’t take long for him to surpass him.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:15 am to geauxtigers87
quote:
it doesnt matter what he does this year, we're not paying him 20 million and that's what he'll get on the open market next year.
$20 mil a year?
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:16 am to GOP_Tiger
Jax reminds me of some edge rushers in football. The tall lean types drafted high that will flash with a big sack every other game, finish with about 5 or 6 sacks on the season, but can't consistently disrupt, run-stop, hold the edge, or drop/cover in space effectively. Always flashing potential, incrementally improving but hardly meeting their draft projection/vision.
Jax was initially drafted as a much-needed rim protector. There's more to that than just shot-blocking/altering shots. One tool is the hands-free chest-bump that every good defender uses to prevent an oponent's advancement/positioning. Watching highlights of Dyson & EJ recently, you can already see they have mastered the chest bump pre-NBA. In 3 years, in the NBA, I'm hard-pressed to recall Jax ever using the chest bump to force a driver to stop driving & pass the ball out.
But like you said, he has enormous potential and has marginally improved each season defensively and offensively but gives off the vibe like he'll be a late bloomer/end of second contract before he realizes his full 3&D rim protector expectations. Is he worth the wait?
Jax was initially drafted as a much-needed rim protector. There's more to that than just shot-blocking/altering shots. One tool is the hands-free chest-bump that every good defender uses to prevent an oponent's advancement/positioning. Watching highlights of Dyson & EJ recently, you can already see they have mastered the chest bump pre-NBA. In 3 years, in the NBA, I'm hard-pressed to recall Jax ever using the chest bump to force a driver to stop driving & pass the ball out.
But like you said, he has enormous potential and has marginally improved each season defensively and offensively but gives off the vibe like he'll be a late bloomer/end of second contract before he realizes his full 3&D rim protector expectations. Is he worth the wait?
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:17 am to jmcwhrter
quote:
Based on?
I realize the SVG season was hard, but it's clear some of you stopped watching or were so traumatized you only remember the bad parts. Once Zion had played himself into shape he was doing very much what Jaxson did last year. Stay in front of people on switches and make timely blocks from the weak side as a help defender. That's why I was never worried about him coming back early tanking chemistry, because you could insert him into the same role Jaxson was playing because he'd already done that defensively at least.
As for Jaxson, he'd need to do 2 things to make it past the trade deadline. Play center effectively, but also be limited enough that there's no market for him next summer and his best deal looks like a Josh Hart contract if not cheaper.
This post was edited on 7/9/22 at 10:19 am
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:22 am to cgrand
quote:
he will be on the team and getting minutes until the deadline at which time his bed will be made one way or another
Perfectly said and perfectly accurate with minimal words
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:28 am to TigerinATL
quote:
As for Jaxson, he'd need to do 2 things to make it past the trade deadline. Play center effectively, but also be limited enough that there's no market for him next summer and his best deal looks like a Josh Hart contract if not cheaper.
I still don't understand the big downside of keeping him. If Jaxson plays great, but it's clear that his market is above what we are going to be able to afford, then we can still work a sign-and-trade deal and get something for him then.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:54 am to GOP_Tiger
Unless you get good value in return it makes no sense to trade JAX to open a roster spot. We all need to get it our heads that Zion, Larry, and Val will miss games. So it's nice to have a 7ft guy who can run jump shoot a high percentage from the field and free throw line for the games those players miss. JAX is perfect for the long regular season same for Billy.
I just don't understand the point of where not going to resign him so we must trade him now. We're not going to get much of anything for a trade with JAX might as well use him in the regular season to save some minutes for our key guys. Then at the end of the season he walks away for nothing in return so be it.
I just don't understand the point of where not going to resign him so we must trade him now. We're not going to get much of anything for a trade with JAX might as well use him in the regular season to save some minutes for our key guys. Then at the end of the season he walks away for nothing in return so be it.
Posted on 7/9/22 at 10:58 am to GOP_Tiger
I’ve been in Hayes’ corner from the beginning. With that said, given the future contractual obligations we will face, it’s better to move him now and find a piece that is suitable, than to lose him for nothing in the very near future.
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