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Started By
Message
re: Goran Dragic Point/Counter-Point
Posted on 5/15/12 at 9:43 pm to Mr. West
Posted on 5/15/12 at 9:43 pm to Mr. West
quote:
SF, C and PF are all much weaker than PG at the moment.
we almost assuredly will draft one of those positions with our 1st pick.
quote:
No need to throw money at something we don't really need
we'll need a PG after next season. how hard is that to
comprehend?
hmm, 25 year old Dragic, or 30 year old Jack?
Jack won't exactly be cheap to re-sign if he has another decent year.
Dragic at the least is worth a strong look. If someone severely overpays, you back out immediately. But PG is definitely a need position. Any time a young, talented PG is out there, you must look hard.
This post was edited on 5/15/12 at 9:45 pm
0
Posted on 5/15/12 at 9:44 pm to Lester Earl
quote:I'd rather hoard that money than get stuck with a bad contract.
just keep saving it, huh?
Rondo made $10 million this year
Conley made 6.5
Tony Parker makes 12.5
$10 million is a lot to pay for 28 starts, thats all. Collison had an even better run than Dragic a few years ago that turned out to be a fluke.
Posted on 5/15/12 at 9:53 pm to eyeran
quote:
Rondo made $10 million this year
Conley made 6.5
Tony Parker makes 12.5
none of these guys have hit the open market, either.
quote:
$10 million is a lot to pay for 28 starts, thats all.
I wouldn't pay him 10 million either. There is a limit.
quote:
Collison had an even better run than Dragic a few years ago that turned out to be a fluke.
And a little used point guard & future HOF'er by the name of Steve Nash had an awakening in his 5th season at the age of 26. (Dragic will be 26 next year).
So who really knows what you have. I have faith the Hornet's would do their homework.
This post was edited on 5/15/12 at 9:54 pm
Posted on 5/15/12 at 10:03 pm to Lester Earl
quote:I dont think we disagree on anything then.
I wouldn't pay him 10 million either. There is a limit.
Sign him if the price is reasonable.
I would be pretty surprised if he got 9 or 10 million though
Posted on 5/15/12 at 10:05 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
so y'all are going on record Dragic is a bust?
Do you read my posts or are you being obtuse on purpose? I like Dragic. I have now said this in every post in this thread. I can like him but also think committing 4/$40 million is a risk based on 30 games.
quote:
You're plan for our future at PG is what, exactly?
Just keep putting it off, hoping we might land someone in the draft?
Why must every position be set for the future this off season? What's the rush? The Hornets won 21 games last year. They aren't magically becoming contenders because they spend like drunken sailors for a 3rd point guard.
quote:
How do you want to spend any money we may have?
just keep saving it, huh?
I guess you thought the Pistons committing 10 years and $100 million to Ben Gordon and Charlie Villaneuva just because they had cap space was a good idea.
Posted on 5/15/12 at 10:11 pm to eyeran
quote:
I dont think we disagree on anything then.
Sign him if the price is reasonable.
I would be pretty surprised if he got 9 or 10 million though
I was just using the figures 247 presented. I'd pay him closer to 8. Anything over that is probably too much.
Posted on 5/15/12 at 10:16 pm to corndeaux
quote:
Do you read my posts or are you being obtuse on purpose? I like Dragic. I have now said this in every post in this thread. I can like him but also think committing 4/$40 million is a risk based on 30 games.
If you like him, then don't call him flavor of the month, and I won't be confused.
You either like him, as I do, or you don't. You said you wouldn't sign him cause you thought he was a flavor of the month. Im not trying to be obtuse at all. You're posts are all over the place.
quote:
Why must every position be set for the future this off season? What's the rush? The Hornets won 21 games last year. They aren't magically becoming contenders because they spend like drunken sailors for a 3rd point guard.
They don't have to be set at all. But how many times do young, talented players hit the open market?
You keep calling him a 3rd PG. He'd start on the Hornet's from day 1. Like i said, you think way too much of Jarrett Jack apparently.
The Hornets won 21 games last year, but were competitive all season with a slew of injuries and not much talent. They very well could compete for a playoff spot next year with the right moves.
quote:
I guess you thought the Pistons committing 10 years and $100 million to Ben Gordon and Charlie Villaneuva just because they had cap space was a good idea.
Yep, you got me. Don't forget Rodney Stuckey. Great signings.
Posted on 5/15/12 at 10:16 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
I'd pay him closer to 8. Anything over that is probably too much.
I'd definitely agree to this.
Posted on 5/15/12 at 10:18 pm to Mr. West
jack is gonna cost near as much in a year
Posted on 5/15/12 at 10:23 pm to drake20
quote:Nobody's paying Jack $8 million. I'd be shocked
jack is gonna cost near as much in a year
He's a backup at most places and was originally brought in to be a backup here
This post was edited on 5/15/12 at 10:24 pm
Posted on 5/15/12 at 10:58 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
If you like him, then don't call him flavor of the month, and I won't be confused.
You either like him, as I do, or you don't. You said you wouldn't sign him cause you thought he was a flavor of the month. Im not trying to be obtuse at all. You're posts are all over the place.
I said I like him but I wouldn't sign him to 4/$40. I can like him and still think he's over valued because he was hot for two months. Look at his career totals and then look at Jack's. They are pretty damn close across the board. Would you have paid $8-$10 million per for a 25 year old Jack? But I guess since I don't like him as you do, I can't like him.
quote:
Like i said, you think way too much of Jarrett Jack apparently.
You're on fire. I wanted Demps to deal Jack this past season. He's not the answer either. quote:
Don't forget Rodney Stuckey.
Now that's funny because you want the Hornets to sign the 2012 version of Stuckey. Dragic is talented but he is also a guy who has played well in a small sample size in one of the stranger NBA seasons ever.
If they feel like they need a pg, I would much rather see them go with Lillard at 10. Get Robinson/Drummond with the early pick, use FA to fill in holes on the wing and frontcourt.
Posted on 5/15/12 at 11:29 pm to corndeaux
quote:
Would you have paid $8-$10 million per for a 25 year old Jack?
Has Jack ever had a 30 game stretch of 49/38/84% 18pts 8 asts?
Look at their career totals?
Im not sure if you realize but Dragic has been stuck behind some guy named Steve Nash. It's not like he has had the same opportunities to play as Jack has.
quote:
Now that's funny because you want the Hornets to sign the 2012 version of Stuckey
Stuckey= Jarrett Jack. A guy with absolutely no upside. Who cant shoot or pass nearly as well as Dragic. Next.
quote:
I can like him and still think he's over valued because he was hot for two months.
what is the appropriate sample size for you to know whether someone is for real or not?
It's hard to get hot for a 30 game stretch, wouldn't you say?
Posted on 5/16/12 at 7:08 am to Lester Earl
quote:
Look at their career totals?
Right. We should ignore the 240 previous games of the guy's career and look only at the 30 game sample size. That makes a lot of sense for a $40 million investment.
quote:
Im not sure if you realize but Dragic has been stuck behind some guy named Steve Nash. It's not like he has had the same opportunities to play as Jack has.
Steve Nash plays basketball? WUT? Aside from his rookie year, he averaged 18 mpg in Phoenix over 180 games in 2.5 years with about a 14 PER. What's interesting is that he played better in the same amount of mpg in Houston last year and this year before he became a starter.
So is the improvement a product of the system in Houston or his actual skills? Kyle Lowry wasn't very good in Memphis, then he turned into an excellent player in Houston. Are they just getting guys who hit their prime or do they do something different?
quote:
Stuckey= Jarrett Jack. A guy with absolutely no upside. Who cant shoot or pass nearly as well as Dragic. Next.
Excellent job of cherry picking. Nowhere do I say Dragic and Stuckey have similar games. Have you ever heard of this new phenomenon called a contract year?
quote:
what is the appropriate sample size for you to know whether someone is for real or not?
You're missing the point. The question isn't if Dragic is real. The question is do you think he's $10 million per yer real under the new CBA.
Posted on 5/16/12 at 8:02 am to Lester Earl
quote:
what is the appropriate sample size for you to know whether someone is for real or not?
I'm a little unsure of his 3pt shooting. His career numbers have been pretty uneven, is he good or mediocre? If he's good AND he's not anti clutch like Beli then he probably is an upgrade to Jack and worth an extra $2 million or so per year. Like you said, we'll just hope the Hornets do their homework. One thing Demps has shown to be a strength is how to find a guy that fits well enough to live up to their potential.
Posted on 5/16/12 at 9:11 am to brmark70816
quote:
brmark70816
thanks for saying everything i wanted to say but in a far more well-written (and polite) way
Posted on 5/16/12 at 10:47 am to TigerinATL
This was really interesting work from Ryan and Jake. I tend to agree with Ryan (counterpoint) a little more, as I think Dragic is going to get a hefty pay day this summer. Also, on/off court numbers can be misleading and obviously are highly dependent on teammates, and who is coming in when said player is out. I think Jake was stretching a little bit with some of his points (team rebound %? For two PGs?), but I do think Dragic will be starting somewhere next year. I believe his numbers will settle somewhere below that 30 game stretch and above his career numbers (don't think he'll sustain the shooting numbers especially). Overall, with PG being such a position of emphasis in the league, and the relative scarcity of decent PGs on the market this summer, I bet Dragic gets overpaid by a substantial amount. Demps might very well be fond of the kid, but I doubt he's enamored enough to outbid the field for his services (and rightly so).
Posted on 5/16/12 at 11:41 am to corndeaux
quote:
Right. We should ignore the 240 previous games of the guy's career and look only at the 30 game sample size. That makes a lot of sense for a $40 million investment.
Im not talking about Dragic's career. And im talking about your stupid comparison of him to Jack.
No, we shouldn't ignore Dragic's career before Houston. But it's not very relevant considering he was stuck behind a HOF Poing guard.
It's a lot more important that when given the chance to start, he has shined.
quote:
Are they just getting guys who hit their prime or do they do something different?
They both have gotten a chance to be full-time starters after leaving PHO and Memphis.
Novel concept, right?
Sometimes all you need is a chance.
quote:
Nowhere do I say Dragic and Stuckey have similar games. Have you ever heard of this new phenomenon called a contract year?
You called him the 2012 version of Stuckey, which is a huge insult. Consider Stuckey has little upside. Can't shoot or pass. So yea, you indirectly insulted Dragic's game whether you realize it or not.
quote:
You're missing the point. The question isn't if Dragic is real. The question is do you think he's $10 million per yer real under the new CBA.
If he is for real, he is probably worth $10mil a year. So again, yea, that kind of is the question here.
Posted on 5/16/12 at 11:44 am to eyeran
quote:
Nobody's paying Jack $8 million. I'd be shocked
He's a backup at most places and was originally brought in to be a backup here
if he starts again next year and puts up near 16 and 6, he's gonna get paid...too much imo
Posted on 5/16/12 at 2:08 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
If he is for real, he is probably worth $10mil a year. So again, yea, that kind of is the question here.
What is so hard for you to comprehend here: I think Dragic is good player and still think the Hornets would be making a dubious move giving him $10 million per year for the next 4 years given their current roster and cap situation.
It is a question of how you value those skills. For the Hornets right now, you value him higher than I do. Congratulations.
Posted on 5/16/12 at 2:11 pm to drake20
quote:
if he starts again next year and puts up near 16 and 6, he's gonna get paid...too much imo
then if the Hornets see him in their long-term plans, they need to sign him to a decent contract now and not be forced to overpay him after next year if he has another good season.
if they draft a pg this year or maybe decide to go the FA route, then there shouldn't be a strong need for jack
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