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Good article on BI's value and future of Max Contracts (hopefully)
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:05 pm
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:05 pm
Why Brandon Ingram is NBA's first true test of what defines a max player under new CBA
Really good article that talks about what i've complained about with max contracts in the NBA for years. It's kind of a long read, but it's a very informative and well written.
Really sucks that BI is looking like he'll be the poster child for this new wave of fiscal responsibility, but i'll be happy if it becomes the new norm in the nba and we get better parity b/c of it.
Really good article that talks about what i've complained about with max contracts in the NBA for years. It's kind of a long read, but it's a very informative and well written.
Really sucks that BI is looking like he'll be the poster child for this new wave of fiscal responsibility, but i'll be happy if it becomes the new norm in the nba and we get better parity b/c of it.
quote:
There's something to the idea that players like Ingram lose value through sample size. A lot of his value came through projection. Players who look like superstars have an easier time convincing teams that they can still become one after their third year than their eighth. Franz Wagner just got a max rookie extension, after all. The bloom might just be off the rose here. Ingram isn't an upside anymore. He's just a player, a very good player, perhaps, but a known quantity on balance. To be frank, though, that hasn't stopped teams from maxing out their own prime players before. Zach LaVine got the max. Bradley Beal got the max. Tobias Harris got the max. NBA dogma has long-been "pay him now, figure it out later." You can always trade him down the line, right?
quote:
Sign a bad max deal in 2017 and there are ways out of it. Russell Westbrook played for five teams during his five-year super-max that ended in 2023. Sometimes you'd find a sucker that overvalued your guy. Sometimes you'd swap him for another bad contract. Sometimes you even had to pay draft picks to get off him. But it was always doable.
But now? Money is so tight around the league that teams are pinching pennies even on role players. If you get a max deal wrong in 2024, that's enough to ruin your books for years to come. Why do you think there's been so little interest in Trae Young on the trade market? Why were there Karl-Anthony Towns rumors leading up to Minnesota's Western Conference finals run? If you're paying someone max money in 2024, he'd better be producing at the level of a max player, because if he's not, that contract cripples your pursuit of depth. That is especially true of players in the Ingram class who are likelier to be a No. 3 option than a No. 1.
quote:
Teams are still willing to hand out max rookie extensions on potential, but doing so isn't as risky. Aside from the upside that comes with youth and the inherent tradability that accompanies it, the rookie max, barring Rose Rule escalators that are only accessible to proven stars, only counts for 25% of the salary cap in the first season. That's a far easier pill to swallow than the 30% players in Ingram's age range get or the 35% players with 10 or more years of experience can sign for. Maxes for players like Wagner, Scottie Barnes and Cade Cunningham will probably still be the norm, at least for now. But teams are going to draw lines in the sand on players coming up on their third contract. Nobody's getting 30% of the cap on potential anymore. You're worth it or you aren't.
quote:
Ingram is the first high-profile example of this phenomenon. Others will come too. Julius Randle becomes extension-eligible on Aug. 5. The Knicks are asking themselves the same questions that the Pelicans are right now, though in fairness, they have a clearer path to championship contention right now and an owner far more willing to spend, so there's a bit more flexibility there even with OG Anunoby already on a giant contract and big ones looming for Jalen Brunson and Mikal Bridges as well. Even the Knicks can't afford to pay Anunoby, Randle and all four Villanova players forever without incurring the second apron's wrath. One of those players isn't going to be on the team in two years unless the Knicks have hoisted a trophy by then. Randle, by far, is the likeliest casualty. Porter is in that situation in Denver. Towns is in Minnesota. Either Darius Garland or Jarrett Allen will be in Cleveland. Perhaps both. If there's any question about whether or not you're worth a 30% max anymore, you probably aren't. Cleveland is paying Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley. They're not paying four max-ish contracts and they might not be willing to pay three.
quote:
All of this opens the door to a lot of scary outcomes for the Pelicans. They might have to let him walk for nothing. They might be so scared of that prospect that they overpay him without a plan. Eventually, players like Ingram are going to learn from Ingram's example. The market will recalibrate because it always does. But right now, teams are adjusting to the new rules faster than players and their agents will. Ingram is not a max player anymore under these new rules, but as long as he thinks of himself as one, he's going to put pressure on the Pelicans to pay him as such.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:20 pm to TeddyPadillac
As long as he maintains that he wants the max, I don't see how any team is going to trade anything of value for him just for a 1 year rental.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:26 pm to Mickey Goldmill
He's Tobias Harris 2.0
If we give him the max you can just pack it up because this iteration of the pelicans is dead.
If we give him the max you can just pack it up because this iteration of the pelicans is dead.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:29 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
Look under the hood on Ingram and things start to get murkier. Most catch-all metrics dislike him. He just ranked 60th in EPM, 66th in VORP, 71st in WS/48 minutes and 125th in LEBRON, to give you a quick sampling.
This part of the article is glaring. He's barely a top 60 player according to most metrics
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:31 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
If there's any question about whether or not you're worth a 30% max anymore, you probably aren't.
Bingo
I'm not scared at all about him walking. If he does, he does.
It's like the NFL. Oh we have to pay this mid level QB big money because he's a QB. That's what gets you to 8-9 every year.
You either have a franchise QB and a max level NBA star or you have nothing.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:44 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
He's barely a top 60 player according to most metrics
Definitely true when considering his role last season. He was higher in the past, and he'll be higher this coming season. But, yeah, last season BI wanted the ball precisely to maximize this coming contract extension, and that 100% backfired on him.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:48 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
This part of the article is glaring. He's barely a top 60 player according to most metrics
These advanced stats aren't as telling like in a team sport for an individual in basketball like they are in an individual sport like baseball.
Take all of that with a grain of salt.
The Finals MVP is barely a top 60 player too.
EPM
Jaylen Brown at 39th
VORP
Jaylen Brown at 70th
WS/48
Jaylen Brown at 67th
LEBRON
Jaylen Brown at 76th
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:52 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
These advanced stats aren't as telling like in a team sport for an individual in basketball like they are in an individual sport like baseball. Take all of that with a grain of salt. The Finals MVP is barely a top 60 player too.
Yeah but I can ignore those stats if you’re finals mvp and have consistently had playoff success individually and team wise. Hard to do that in BI’s case.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 1:56 pm to ghost2most
quote:that seems to be the least onerous of the several available bad outcomes. the funny thing will be that he wont get a FA offer anywhere near what he could have just signed for and then orchestrated a trade
I'm not scared at all about him walking. If he does, he does.
oh well...typical pelicans scenario
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:04 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Yeah but I can ignore those stats if you’re finals mvp and have consistently had playoff success individually and team wise. Hard to do that in BI’s case.
You're right, but those are baseball stats trying to be used in basketball, and they don't always translate that well.
But i'll also say that when a stat is trying to show who are the most impactful players in the league and 20 of the top 22 guys are all supserstar all-stars, then it's a stat that is pretty good at saying who plays like a superstar.
It's not a secret BI didn't have a good season overall. That's being made obvious by no one wanting to give him a max extension.
I think NYK giving OG a max hurts our argument to not wanting to give one to BI and makes BI want that max too. OG is not worth a max contract for his 3rd contract. Like BI, he's a really good player, but he shouldn't be making max money.
I said it before, giving max contracts on rookie extensions is about potential. That 3rd contract should be about worth, which is what this whole article was about. OG bucks that though.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:06 pm to cgrand
quote:
that seems to be the least onerous of the several available bad outcomes. the funny thing will be that he wont get a FA offer anywhere near what he could have just signed for and then orchestrated a trade
oh well...typical pelicans scenario
The only cap space teams next year are tanking teams. If Ingram leaves for a max to go to a tanking team instead of taking less money to try and compete then that tells me all I need to know about him.
Its a win-win scenario
You either get him back for less than a max or you lose a guy that's not serious about winning.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:09 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
But, yeah, last season BI wanted the ball precisely to maximize this coming contract extension, and that 100% backfired on him.
I do think this happened, and yeah it most certainly did backfire.
But I do think even BI recognizes this, and I hope that's the wakeup call he needs to have a bounce back season this year WITH US.
Best case scenario is his game improves and we pay him, and hopefully Hawkins takes a step in the right direction and can be the shooter we need off the bench to move CJ to make room for BI and Trey's extension.
Hopefully the new CBA and the restrictions and punishments of being a tax team and having 3 superstars on your team will place more emphasis on the draft and developing talent.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:11 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I think NYK giving OG a max hurts our argument to not wanting to give one to BI and makes BI want that max too. OG is not worth a max contract for his 3rd contract. Like BI, he's a really good player, but he shouldn't be making max money.
I said it before, giving max contracts on rookie extensions is about potential. That 3rd contract should be about worth, which is what this whole article was about. OG bucks that though.
Multiple teams were reportedly willing to give OG the max. Detroit and Philly to name 2.
The market deemed OG worth the max because he does what the league values, play defense and shoot 3s.
The market has proven to not value what BI does
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:23 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:OG does not shoot much more 3s than BI. The difference is that he was a FA. Ingram is a trade prospect so teams do not want to pay his value in trade assets and then have to max him.
Multiple teams were reportedly willing to give OG the max. Detroit and Philly to name 2.
The market deemed OG worth the max because he does what the league values, play defense and shoot 3s.
The market has proven to not value what BI does
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:29 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I think NYK giving OG a max hurts our argument to not wanting to give one to BI and makes BI want that max too. OG is not worth a max contract for his 3rd contract. Like BI, he's a really good player, but he shouldn't be making max money.
I said it before, giving max contracts on rookie extensions is about potential. That 3rd contract should be about worth, which is what this whole article was about. OG bucks that though.
I think NY is going to become a unique situation, similarly to before with some teams.
If you have multiple rookie deals or multiple talented players on good deals (Brunson who's playing like a max on a submax deal or Hart who's an elite role player on a reasonable deal) than you can max guys like anunoby and bridges come time. Because when Brunson time is up, you will move on from Randle and maybe one of the other 2.
Cade is gonna get paid, nobody else will on Detroit. Theyll likely fill it with mid tier vets and hope to get a sub star in a trade in sure.
We're in a situation where we have 1 great value deal (herb), rookie deals or cheap deals (alvarado, Murphy), 2 semi value/submax deals (McCollum and Murray), and two max (zion and Ingram). We can't keep it up because the rookie deals will get paid (murphy) and realistically we should only have 1 max as long as we have too many of these higher cost semi value/submax guys.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:31 pm to NOSHAU
OG plays for the knicks, and they had just traded for him knowing they’d immediately extend him and his lineup spot is secure.
BI plays for the pelicans, who have now paid him over 125MM dollars to basically do nothing out of the ordinary, and at this juncture it’s unclear in what lineups he even works.
there’s no spot for him now. That’s specific to the pels and has nothing to do with OG. Compound that with the fact that he evidently wants 50MM a year to re sign and you get what we have now
BI plays for the pelicans, who have now paid him over 125MM dollars to basically do nothing out of the ordinary, and at this juncture it’s unclear in what lineups he even works.
there’s no spot for him now. That’s specific to the pels and has nothing to do with OG. Compound that with the fact that he evidently wants 50MM a year to re sign and you get what we have now
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:38 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
Multiple teams were reportedly willing to give OG the max. Detroit and Philly to name 2.
good for them. I think that would be stupid.
quote:
The market deemed OG worth the max because he does what the league values, play defense and shoot 3s.
nah. that's not worthy of a max. That's what Tobias Harris was. It was stupid then and it's stupid now. That's a role player. A really good elite role player, but nonetheless a role player.
I do'nt think they should be getting max contracts.
quote:
The market has proven to not value what BI does
That's not what is happening here.
BI just hasn't been good enough at what he does to deserve a max.
The league without a doubt covets what BI does over what OG does.
BI and OG are two comletely different players.
At no point will the Knicks, or any team OG might have gone to, expect OG to create a basket for them with under 2 minutes left in a game.
BI is expected to do that, he just didnt' do it well enough this past year.
Mikal Bridges is going to want a max contract too, and i'd say he's not worth it either. Elite excellent role player, but he should be making near max money, not max money, just like OG.
No one is going to blame OG or Mikal for losing a playoff game or series. They could be the reason they win one easily, but they'll rarely get the blame for it.
Regardless of what team BI plays for, that's a burden he'll always have b/c he's a scorer/creater, and that's the guys that get the praise and the blame 1st.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:39 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
He's Tobias Harris 2.0
If we give him the max you can just pack it up because this iteration of the pelicans is dead.
Or even Bradley Beal.
The only players worth paying a max to are players who are worth more than the max.
If you max out players like Bradley Beal, Tobias Harris, KAT, Zach Lavine, Ayton, MPJ, etc... you end up hurting yourself more than helping yourself.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:46 pm to htran90
quote:
I think NY is going to become a unique situation, similarly to before with some teams.
What's special about NYK is that they're a true contender trying to get a title. It still makes sense to overspend if you think that the guy you're paying is maybe the difference between winning a title or not.
That's why OG got his money. If we had made the WCF last season and were trying to win a title this season, BI would be getting a full max.
Posted on 7/10/24 at 2:48 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
The league without a doubt covets what BI does over what OG does.
What does BI do that the league covets?
Midrange shots? Nope
Bad Defense? Nope
Bad off ball play? Nope
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