re: WESTWORLD Seasn 4 *season long discussion thread*

Thought this week’s episode felt pretty rushed, particularly the part at the Hoover Dam.

Some great moments though. That scene with the two Williams was fantastic. The ending was quite the mindfrick. My new theory is that Hale either uploaded OG Dolores or another copy of her to the system controlling the people in the city, basically to outsource the narratives. But I don’t know, it seems a bit silly so maybe I’m way off.

Will be interesting to see how they close this out in one episode without leaving a ton of plot holes.

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particularly the part at the Hoover Dam.

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well they opened up the sublime - probably because Arnold knew he wasn't coming back from the city, but there has to be a reason they did it, so I'm guessing we see a little more of that scene next week.

Also, absolute phenomenal pivot into the Man in Black literally destroying the world, the only thing he would be capable of doing since season 1

ETA: for those of you that we fans of Person of Interest, this episode was co-written by one of the big Person of Interest writers. (Denise Thè) I've always said Westworld is a reimagining of the end of Person of Interest had the good AI not won, so I really liked that kinda... nod

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If she doesn't exist in the world with everyone else, how does she hold conversations with people that are. Her roommate; human..Boss; human..the rando that killed himself; human. Teddy even fought a guy.

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Yeah, those were my thoughts as well. Like I mentioned before, it’ll be interesting to see whether they can wrap this up in one episode without plot holes.

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At this point I'm just hoping Stubb's makes it. That goodbye from Bernard just seemed fishy. I'm thinking he pulls though.

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Yeah at first I thought Bernard was just lying because he was the one who was going to die. But now it sounds like everyone might die.

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What was the point in opening the void? I need to re watch the last few episodes but I'm under the understanding that this Bernard and this Maeve are not the original ones we've seen from the start of S1 through S3..they are copies.

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That’s an interesting theory. I think Maeve is probably original since they dug up her body. Bernard theoretically could have made a copy of himself to execute his plan but I think that would be a bit out of character for him.

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What was the point in opening the void?

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I just assumed that since Bernard was the only one with the key to the Sublime, and he knew he was on a suicide mission, he opened it so the key didn't die with him.

But then all that other shite happened and now I don't know what parts of what I saw were in the sublime and what was real

What is this show even about, now?

The biggest question we still need to have answered is "transcendence"

Hale wanted all the host to transcend, and a part of me wonders if Catherine's story has something to do with it.

My theory is that transcendence is a way for the host to all come together as a hive mind without the "human" portion of their programming holding them back.

It's why she isn't getting any volunteers, the host have faulty programming due to being built in the image of their creator: the desire for individualism

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I don't think it's a theory. Like I said I need to go re watch but, in the last episode in the scene where they are at the dam...Bernard is running through all the possible outcomes of each scenario.

In the first go at the situation inside the dam he asks if she wants a drink...then * I think * he tells her that she is not herself, just a copy. Then asks her if she would still fight with him knowing that she was already uploaded to the Valley...*I think*.

Then the next time they run through that scene he doesn't tell Maeve that this version is just a copy or offer her a drink and she says "I could really use a drink right about now"...

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The way I interpreted it was that the first scene was a flashback to the “simulations” that he had been running during his 23 year hiatus. He created that version of Maeve for the purposes of simulation - there were a few lines to clarify this:
- Bernard’s comments about how he created her “rather hastily.”
- Bernard’s statement that if they die, they’ll just do it again.
- The commentary about whether she was acting like the real Maeve or just acting like Bernard would expect from the real Maeve.

So the first scene at the Hoover Dam is pretty clearly a simulation. Where it gets weird is that it seems they pivot to present-day Bernard, on the same mission with the real Maeve. That’s why I said the dam part felt rushed. It’s possible that they made it intentionally ambiguous to set up some sort of twist, but it’s also possible that they just got a little sloppy and didn’t do a great job of separating the present from the simulations.

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So that makes me think that Bernard/Delores/someone uploaded all of the original hosts to the Valley prior to this season...With Teddy and Delores being force ghost allegedly there would be no hosts left but copies that Delores made of herself or copies that Halores made of herself.

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So the implication would definitely be that if the present-day Bernard/Maeve scenes are happening in a simulation, then almost everything else is also happening in a simulation since Bernard, Stubbs, and Maeve have interacted with every other main character at this point.

I wouldn’t put it past the Westworld writers but man that’d be a fricked up way to end the season.

As an aside, the creation of “copies” in general is really starting to create some plot holes. Bernard has enough data to create simulation copies (including the humans) so accurate that he can predict the future, but the human copy tech is still bugged? Also, we were talking earlier in this thread about how Hale’s human copies were only designed to look like their human counterparts but then William blows that up by “becoming” the MIB.

I don’t know. I want to give the writers the benefit of the doubt, just seems like a lot of loose ends.

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As an aside, the creation of “copies” in general is really starting to create some plot holes. Bernard has enough data to create simulation copies (including the humans) so accurate that he can predict the future, but the human copy tech is still bugged? Also, we were talking earlier in this thread about how Hale’s human copies were only designed to look like their human counterparts but then William blows that up by “becoming” the MIB.

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This is an interesting discussion. It appears they've almost mastered the hybrid approach, creating host copies that have access to all of the data they've acquired from watching the human. But its clear they are nowhere near solving the problem of how to make the original human immortal. OG William told new William, "part of me is in you and it was infecting him", or something like that. In other words they can make host copies that know they are host copies, but they can't make host copies that think they are human, or something like that.

And all that said, they haven't actually mastered the hybrid approach as host are now regressing and killing themselves.

If you look closely, man in black missed a bit right of Hale’s pearl.

Hale might be alive still.

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Hale might be alive still.

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Hale survived

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hides something (a gun maybe) behind a pipe.

Right when he's stating that she leads because she is the better fighter.

Curious when that comes to play, and who is it for to find

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and the gun is for her