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Message
re: Lost Writer Reveals Show's Complicated Creation
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:43 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:43 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
you're making a temporal argument based around a magical island that can manipulate time?
Or that
1
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:47 am to Freauxzen
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:51 am to Freauxzen
Well, lets not get in a pissing match on something we all know that happened, but all in all it was a good essay that goes into the creative process during the first season. I still find it ridiculous that Lloyd Braun was fired over green lighting the show, and Stephen McPherson tried to sabotage the show any way he could, and tried to force JJ and Linedeloff turn it into a 6 episode mini-series instead.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:56 am to Freauxzen
quote:
While I don't agree AT ALL, I think it's a valid view of the show. With so many interpretations... it's there. Even if the writers say so, they put TOO MUCH in there to not allow such an interpretation. If they wanted a complete and direct ending they should have structured it as such.
This is the same argument you and I always have. My issue with your stance is that they did structure a very clear and direct ending. Let's say you thought it was purgatory from episode one all the way to the finale, they very crystal-clearly explain to you that it's not the case, and that everything that happened on the island, happened for real.
So even if you were on that bandwagon the whole time, they straight up tell you what happened. Now, whether you choose to accept that or not is maybe a different thing (not you specifically since I know you don't think it was purgatory the whole time, but those people in general), but Christian lays it all out very plainly and clearly.
Not to mention that all the "real world stuff later in the series (like the "Oceanic Six" stuff) doesn't make any sense if it's purgatory the whole time.
This post was edited on 3/26/15 at 12:00 pm
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:57 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Well, lets not get in a pissing match on something we all know that happened,
Are you referring to Lost as a whole? Or are you saying that we "all know how Lost happened?" We don't that's kind of the point. Or we don't HAVE to, such as the show was constructed.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:00 pm to SlowFlowPro
I think what OMLandshark is trying to say is this:
In every good story, at some point logic and how the audience perceives reality has to connect with the story.
If you throw that out the window, Lost could mean pretty much anything and end however you want.
The writers were closing the series out by appealing to the audience's perception of reality - aka time, verbiage, and logic.
IMO what Christian said was meant to be literal (as vindicated by some of the writers themselves). They were trying to be clear and wrap up the story.
The problem is that, by the time they got there, there was too much symbolism and metaphor tied up in the plot to sell the "realistic" end to everyone.
They opened Pandora's box and struggled to close it.
In every good story, at some point logic and how the audience perceives reality has to connect with the story.
If you throw that out the window, Lost could mean pretty much anything and end however you want.
The writers were closing the series out by appealing to the audience's perception of reality - aka time, verbiage, and logic.
IMO what Christian said was meant to be literal (as vindicated by some of the writers themselves). They were trying to be clear and wrap up the story.
The problem is that, by the time they got there, there was too much symbolism and metaphor tied up in the plot to sell the "realistic" end to everyone.
They opened Pandora's box and struggled to close it.
This post was edited on 3/26/15 at 12:01 pm
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:04 pm to Freauxzen
TL;DR for my previous post - to summarize Lost: "if you throw too much crap against the wall, the stains aren't coming out of the wall paper".
But I still love the wall paper.
But I still love the wall paper.
This post was edited on 3/26/15 at 12:05 pm
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:05 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
"dead" is a very specific term for a very specific argument. anyone can craft an award-winning argument if they frame the discussion in a way that can only lead to their preferred conclusion. again, the entire mythology of lost opens up the door for how we describe their existential reality. it's not a binary system that you assume is the only option.
quote:
you're making a temporal argument based around a magical island that can manipulate time?
That's reaching IMO. I understand what you're trying to say, but that's taking everything the show said and showed us and trying to attach meaning to it that isn't there. Sure, Lost opens itself up to a lot of interpretation(s), but them dying in the pilot and the whole thing being about purgatory simply isn't logical, nor would half of the show make sense if it were true (cue Freauxzen saying half didn't make sense anyway).
Long story short, you're "True Detective-ing" Lost here.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:11 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
TL;DR for my previous post - to summarize Lost: "if you throw too much crap against the wall, the stains aren't coming out of the wall paper".
But I still love the wall paper.
I'm going to agree here, love is strong. I still talk about Lost though so I must at least really really like it.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:13 pm to CocomoLSU
quote:
This is the same argument you and I always have. My issue with your stance is that they did structure a very clear and direct ending. Let's say you thought it was purgatory from episode one all the way to the finale, they very crystal-clearly explain to you that it's not the case, and that everything that happened on the island, happened for real.
So even if you were on that bandwagon the whole time, they straight up tell you what happened. Now, whether you choose to accept that or not is maybe a different thing (not you specifically since I know you don't think it was purgatory the whole time, but those people in general), but Christian lays it all out very plainly and clearly.
But there were clear things that were made unclear in a matter of seconds on the show. So even "clarity is distrustful. At one point, the Walt-hive mind theory made a TON of sense just given the evidence. But we all know that isn't the case (or is it?).
So I think all I'm saying, is that those folks aren't "fricking idiots," they just don't trust Lost even when it's being 100% honest, and they have plenty of valid reasons not to. And that's ok. Or at least that's at the fault of the writer's for creating an untrustworthy show.
This post was edited on 3/26/15 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:18 pm to CocomoLSU
it's not as much that they "died" as in the binary alive/dead construct
if you are sucked into a magical island that won't let you leave and nobody outside of the island can interact with you, are you "alive"?
that's all i'm trying to say
if you are sucked into a magical island that won't let you leave and nobody outside of the island can interact with you, are you "alive"?
that's all i'm trying to say
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:19 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
So I think all I'm saying, is that those folks aren't "fricking idiots," they just don't trust Lost even when it's being 100% honest,
If there are people that don't take christian's speech as fact, then what do they even accept as real on the show? None of it? It the viewer is able to just interpret anything and everything in any way they personally want to, the entire show was nothing more than a 6 year choose your own adventure book.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:32 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
But there were clear things that were made unclear in a matter of seconds on the show. So even "clarity is distrustful. At one point, the Walt-hive mind theory made a TON of sense just given the evidence. But we all know that isn't the case (or is it?).
So I think all I'm saying, is that those folks aren't "fricking idiots," they just don't trust Lost even when it's being 100% honest, and they have plenty of valid reasons not to. And that's ok. Or at least that's at the fault of the writer's for creating an untrustworthy show.
I get what you're saying, but that's from a standpoint that it was still logical late in the series (or even halfway) that they were all still in purgatory...which is isn't, and that's my argument.
Sure, maybe "fricking idiots" is a bit harsh, but that's more a product of how I talk than me actually thinking they are that ridiculously stupid (although I could put together a good argument as to why people who still believed that by the end of the series were lacking something).
My point was that even if you're looney (fricking looney?
) enough to believe or stay on the "purgatory bandwagon" all along, they specifically push you off of it in the finale. So if you're still on it at that point, you're trying to miss obvious things. Even if you want to argue that there are a lot of things throughout the show that aren't so obvious and that are open to interpretation, the entire show being purgatory isn't one of them. quote:
Or at least that's at the fault of the writer's for creating an untrustworthy show.
That's such bullshite...but now you're just trying to push my Lost buttons, so I will attempt to ignore it.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:33 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
it's not as much that they "died" as in the binary alive/dead construct
if you are sucked into a magical island that won't let you leave and nobody outside of the island can interact with you, are you "alive"?
that's all i'm trying to say
I know. But this part:
quote:
won't let you leave and nobody outside of the island can interact with you
..isn't true.
Like I said, you're True Detective-ing the shite out of this.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:34 pm to Byron Bojangles III
That's really old news regarding Jack.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:38 pm to WG_Dawg
quote:
If there are people that don't take christian's speech as fact, then what do they even accept as real on the show? None of it? It the viewer is able to just interpret anything and everything in any way they personally want to, the entire show was nothing more than a 6 year choose your own adventure book
This is sort of what I am getting at.
If you can just interpret everything on the show however you want, then of course you can make an (wildly outlandish) argument for whatever you want. But at some point, the intentions of the show should, at the very least, take you down a path that should lead you to some resolution. And Lost definitely does that. The problem is that a lot of people got pissed off at the show and attempt to make it into something that it's really not.
And note that I say that completely respecting Freaux or SFP, and realize that it is possible to be critical of the show despite being a fan of it (Freaux has even said many times that he liked Lost but just didn't think it was very good, so to speak).
But I do think that people hanging onto the purgatory thing are either being intentionally obtuse or are not being honest about understanding the show.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:39 pm to UMRealist
quote:
That's really old news regarding Jack.
Well I didn't know so
Posted on 3/26/15 at 12:51 pm to Byron Bojangles III
Posted on 3/26/15 at 1:22 pm to WG_Dawg
quote:
If there are people that don't take christian's speech as fact, then what do they even accept as real on the show? None of it? It the viewer is able to just interpret anything and everything in any way they personally want to, the entire show was nothing more than a 6 year choose your own adventure book.
That's kind of the point imo. You are spot on. But again, that's what the writers gave us.
Posted on 3/26/15 at 1:29 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
But there were clear things that were made unclear in a matter of seconds on the show. So even "clarity is distrustful. At one point, the Walt-hive mind theory made a TON of sense just given the evidence. But we all know that isn't the case (or is it?).
Walt had psychic powers. The article that is linked here confirms it, and said that the network said they couldn't do it, but did subtle hints to it regardless. Says that Damon came in after talking with the network and "frick it, Walt still has powers, we just need to put it in a way that will go over the executives heads". I think it would have been much clearer if the writers had been allowed to do it in the earlier seasons.
quote:
So I think all I'm saying, is that those folks aren't "fricking idiots," they just don't trust Lost even when it's being 100% honest, and they have plenty of valid reasons not to. And that's ok. Or at least that's at the fault of the writer's for creating an untrustworthy show.
It really makes no sense from seasons 3 onward if they died in the Crash. I'll buy that Desmond may have died in a sailing accident before the series started, but it makes no sense for Juliet and Ben to be dead, and then apparently one of the Others goes freely between the Island and the real world. Then comes the Oceanic 6 plotline, then they crash back on the Island, and finally time travel. Doesn't make sense if they're all dead.
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