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re: Lost Writer Reveals Show's Complicated Creation

Posted on 3/26/15 at 10:39 am to
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
109572 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 10:39 am to
Here's something I found interesting, is that it took until writing the third episode of the series before they came up with the Flashback narrative idea, which of course is the absolute soul of LOST and what made it so iconic. I would have thought that they came up with that concept within 10 minutes of first thinking about the show, not months after filming the Pilot.

quote:

As we waited to find out our fate, we began to fully beat out what would eventually become episode 2 of the series, "Tabula Rasa." This early attempt at a full story break was an interesting test of our premises of what the show was and could be. While we knew that we would have eventually unpack such series-wide elements as the provenance of the polar bear and the French Woman's broadcast, the true meaning of the "Black Rock" (that one we would not figure out until well into season one) and the Medusa Corporation and The Others (as of the May 5th document, they had officially been renamed from the far more Sid and Marty Krofft-sounding "jungle creeps"), we were under strict orders to deliver a solid island A. story that had nothing to do with the science-fictional elements of the show so as to prove to the network that it was possible to be Lost without being all about the smoke monster.

The truly gripping notion of having to euthanize a dying castaway became the center of this episode break -- and made for an outstanding A story with a lot of self-evident scene possibilities. As we tried to graft to that a spine-tingling runner about digging latrines, and a destined-for-must-see-TV discussion about the funeral procedure for those who died in the plane crash, one undeniable truth kept coming up, a truth that we kept skirting for three months of brainstorming but had never embraced...

If the pilot featured flashbacks to the plane before the crash -- and the context they provided for the island story was such a great source of contrast and revelation -- and if we spent so much time developing the backstories of these characters -- why not make that a part of the series?

Wouldn't it be great if we could see Kate's arrest by the marshal, and maybe their previous Kimble/Gerard relationship as a contrast to her trying to pretend that she didn't know him?

It is difficult to imagine that for so long -- when they were part of the pilot, and frequently discussed in the think tank, and when they were so clearly the pivotal thematic lever of the series -- the flashbacks were not considered as being of the essence to the show. Instead, the device was sort of tacitly agreed to have been a thematic grace note that would remain unique to the pilot and not be used in series.

Now, however, as we truly tried to put our ideas into practice, the episodic format finally took shape around the notion that “flashbacks are there to demonstrate what you are in the island is a contrast to what you were in your other life." This conceit became the theme of Lost, our central concern in the development of the stories, and the glue that held seasons of the show together.

We had been so concerned about how much sci-fi we could or couldn't get into the stories, and about whether or not the series could be serialized or not, that we didn't stop to consider that the stories we had created for our characters could not only carry the freight of our narrative, but also create a crucial thematic counterpoint. Equally importantly we didn't realize until very late that the flashbacks would provide visual opportunities different from the dust and grime of a survival existence. And, yes, by that, I mean "flashbacks allowed us to put the characters in clean, fashionable clothes and spectacular hair."

It's shocking, in hindsight, that it took so long for us to get there, but thank YHWH that we did.
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
150961 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 10:43 am to
quote:

So what exactly is a not so idiotic explanation of where they were at the end?

Before I answer that, check WG's post above to make sure we're on the same page...my comment was about people who thought they were in purgatory throughout the series and viewed the final montage of footage during the credits as evidence of that.

As for your specific question, I assume you mean the alternate timeline thing in S6. Christian tells Jack that it was a place they (as a group) had created to meet up so that they could move into the afterlife together. I guess you could consider it some type of purgatory-like realm or whatever (although it isn't really purgatory in the sense that they were all moving onto Heaven already...they just were there waiting for everyone to die so that they could do it together...i.e. it wasn't a place they were being judged or whatever), but the point of it was to be a "place" (spiritually) for them to meet up and move on as a group.
This post was edited on 3/26/15 at 10:44 am
Posted by WG_Dawg
Hoover
Member since Jun 2004
86584 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 10:46 am to
quote:

the true meaning of the "Black Rock" (that one we would not figure out until well into season one)


I know nothing about writing a show but stuff like this amazes me. The black rock was a fairly prominent part of the show and they didn't even know what it'd be until halfway through the season? So how does that work...they just say "hmmm...let's have someone say something about the black rock" "What is that?" "I don't know, we'll figure it out later"?
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
109572 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:03 am to
quote:

I know nothing about writing a show but stuff like this amazes me. The black rock was a fairly prominent part of the show and they didn't even know what it'd be until halfway through the season? So how does that work...they just say "hmmm...let's have someone say something about the black rock" "What is that?" "I don't know, we'll figure it out later"?



Reading onward, it seems that they had at least some idea on what the Black Rock could be, but it was changed halfway through the season to a giant ship. From what he's saying, they'd only introduce mysteries if they felt satisfied they could answer them at that point. But if someone down the road came up with a better idea and they weren't too far down the rabbit hole to retcon, then they'd go with what they felt was the better idea.
Posted by WG_Dawg
Hoover
Member since Jun 2004
86584 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:09 am to
Oh ok that makes a lot more sense.

Also any clarification on my description of the S6 alt-timeline would be appreciated, I tried to sum it up succinctly but you might do a better job of it than me.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37468 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:14 am to
quote:

“There was definitely a sort of ‘operational theory’ for what the island would be,” he writes, adding that there were strong differences of opinions on the concepts for the island. However, Grillo-Marxuach backs up Lost executive producer Carlton Cuse’s statement from the reunion last year that the characters were not in purgatory the whole time, despite some reading the ending as saying that.

Further into the post, Grillo-Marxuach addresses the world-building for Lost as production began on the pilot episode. The writers built a world, an ensemble of “flawed but interesting characters,” and placed them in situations where the characters would “bond and solve problems.” After those concepts were in place, the writers created pasts for the characters to provide a comparison of who they were before and after reaching the island.


My issue has always been that this works....for Big Bang Theory. But Lost presents itself, despite the title, as a show with a point to shoot for with a goal, with something to attain and uncover, the fact that it wasn't in the end drags it down significantly. However,.....

quote:

Grillo-Marxuach goes into great detail about Jack’s character and the original plan to kill him off in the show's pilot episode - and how the network wouldn't allow it. As has been mentioned before, co-creator J.J. Abrams wanted Michael Keaton to play Jack, pretending to be a series regular (including doing promotion for the show), only to be killed in the show's first hour.

As Grillo-Marxuach notes, the network was also always scared of the show being too overtly sci-fi and serialized, which lead to the writers and producers initially doing all they could to disguise the sci-fi elements - even from their own corporate bosses. Walt, for instance, was a character who caused a lot of disagreements between the writers and the network and studio, who didn't want him to have psychic powers, even while the Lost writers felt he should.


This sounds like too many cooks in the kitchen, maybe not the creators fault in the end. I'll cool my thoughts, but just say that I WISH it was something more succinct more on point. But I'll admire it for what it is. A fun mess of a show.

quote:

There's also a lot of information on the process of how they would add new elements to the show and how Abrams' famous "mystery box" approach interweaved with Damon Lindelof wanting to hold off on introducing any new question until they had at least some idea what the answer to it could be. One notable example of this is the Hatch, which Abrams came up with the idea for and wanted to put into the series immediately. Instead, they waited until halfway through the first season because Lindelof (who was initially the sole showrunner, before Carlton Cuse then partnered with him) wanted to wait until they had some angles on what exactly was inside that hatch.


This confuses the heck out of me because I think Lindelhof is a complete hack and the biggest problem, but he sounds like the sane one here. Oy.
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
109572 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:14 am to
quote:

Also any clarification on my description of the S6 alt-timeline would be appreciated, I tried to sum it up succinctly but you might do a better job of it than me.



You were right. The flash-sideways were basically purgatory, and everything that happened on the Island happened for real.

He's also insistent later on that they didn't plan on purgatory from the start and they knew that they were all alive after the crash.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37468 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:15 am to
quote:

quote:

the characters were not in purgatory the whole time, despite some reading the ending as saying that.


fricking idiots.


While I don't agree AT ALL, I think it's a valid view of the show. With so many interpretations... it's there. Even if the writers say so, they put TOO MUCH in there to not allow such an interpretation. If they wanted a complete and direct ending they should have structured it as such.
Posted by theunknownknight
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2005
57456 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:16 am to
For season 6:

Take everything that happened on the island - in order, and put all of that in the first half of the season.

Jack dies with Vincent (after "saving the afterlife" by fixing the island) at the end of the mid-season finale.

In the opening scene kicking off the second half of the season,Jack wakes up on the plane in the afterlife he just saved (at this point purgatory). The second half of the season would be all the losties reuniting in the afterlife (as time is meaningless there).

Once they are all united - since they lived together - they can "die together" following the "Christian Shepherd" to heaven.

Season ends.
This post was edited on 3/26/15 at 11:18 am
Posted by WG_Dawg
Hoover
Member since Jun 2004
86584 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:19 am to
quote:

While I don't agree AT ALL, I think it's a valid view of the show. With so many interpretations... it's there. Even if the writers say so, they put TOO MUCH in there to not allow such an interpretation


You can't look at the totality of the show and interpret it that way. If in season 1 or 2 or something people thought it was purgatory...THAT would be a valid idea. Like you said there are interpretations of events that might lead people to think that, and they could have some valid arguments. But Christian's speech in teh church completely, absolutely, irrefutably wipes away all of that. He point blank tells the viewer that it wasn't purgatory. After that, I don't see how anyone could still interpret it that way.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37468 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:23 am to
quote:

You can't look at the totality of the show and interpret it that way. If in season 1 or 2 or something people thought it was purgatory...THAT would be a valid idea. Like you said there are interpretations of events that might lead people to think that, and they could have some valid arguments. But Christian's speech in teh church completely, absolutely, irrefutably wipes away all of that. He point blank tells the viewer that it wasn't purgatory. After that, I don't see how anyone could still interpret it that way.


Just playing Devil's advocate, but nearly anything in Lost is refutable (that's kind of the point with all the red herrings and relativity of events). There are....twisted ways to look at. Lost is sort of untrustworthy in totality. We don't need to have that kind of discussion, it would drag the thread down, but any number of things could cover Christian's speech.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
424659 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:30 am to
i mean a godlike force bringing people to a magical island pretty much allows a wide birth for defining their existential reality on that island
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
109572 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:34 am to
quote:

While I don't agree AT ALL, I think it's a valid view of the show. With so many interpretations... it's there. Even if the writers say so, they put TOO MUCH in there to not allow such an interpretation. If they wanted a complete and direct ending they should have structured it as such.



It's not a valid view of the show. Christian Shephard point blank explains it to the audience in the last 10 minutes of the show. Anyone who says they were dead and in purgatory the whole time is just wrong. Plus the second half of the show doesn't make sense if they're all dead, with the Flash-Forwards and time travel, and whatnot.

Here's the clip that explains it: LINK
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
109572 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:36 am to
quote:

We don't need to have that kind of discussion, it would drag the thread down, but any number of things could cover Christian's speech.


Jack: They're all dead?
Christian: Everybody dies sometime, Kiddo. Some have been BEFORE you, and some LONG AFTER you.

If they all died in the crash, how did they not die at roughly the same time?
This post was edited on 3/26/15 at 11:37 am
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37468 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:37 am to
quote:

i mean a godlike force bringing people to a magical island pretty much allows a wide birth for defining their existential reality on that island


Bingo.

Like I alluded to, this would get dirty. But the show really doesn't allow for a definitive view. That was the push and pull throughout it's run. Whether that was built by the writers on purpose, or stay one step ahead of the fans, either way, it's wide open.

That was both a strength and a weakness of the show.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
424659 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:38 am to
quote:

Anyone who says they were dead and in purgatory the whole time is just wrong.

quote:

Plus the second half of the show doesn't make sense if they're all dead,

"dead" is a very specific term for a very specific argument. anyone can craft an award-winning argument if they frame the discussion in a way that can only lead to their preferred conclusion. again, the entire mythology of lost opens up the door for how we describe their existential reality. it's not a binary system that you assume is the only option.
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37468 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:39 am to
quote:

Jack: They're all dead?
Christian: Everybody dies sometime, Kiddo. Some have been BEFORE you, and some LONG AFTER you.

If they all died in the crash, how did they not die at roughly the same time?


We're not going down this rabbit hole. But I'll give the easy answer here....

If they're all in purgatory, like the belief would be, then LOST happens in an instant right? Or in a short "time." BEFORE and LONG AFTER could just refer to seconds or minutes and be relative to what we saw as the viewer. It FELT like a long time, but was really a short time.

Is it absurd? Of course. I wouldn't agree. However, the show leaves the interpretation available.
Posted by theunknownknight
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2005
57456 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:41 am to
I guess no one is going to give me props for my fabulous explanation of season 6?
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
424659 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:42 am to
quote:

If they all died in the crash, how did they not die at roughly the same time?

you're making a temporal argument based around a magical island that can manipulate time?
Posted by Freauxzen
Utah
Member since Feb 2006
37468 posts
Posted on 3/26/15 at 11:42 am to
quote:

I guess no one is going to give me props for my fabulous explanation of season 6?


It was good.

I do like your analysis of Jin. Great character, completely underrated by fans and exponentially more interesting than Jack.
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