re: Let’s Talk Toxic Masculinity in Braveheart, Gladiator, The Northman, and …..

Bronc:




Word salad, word salad, white man, word salad, patriarchy, word salad, capitalism, word salad, systemic racism, word salad......

You have to shine a light on the vermin to draw them out of hiding.

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Mark Ruffalo has the same physique as Mel Gibson and more in shape than Russel Crowe in Gladiator.

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Eh

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There is no such thing as toxic masculinity, so this whole thread is moot anyway.

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The term was coined in the 80s and 90s, as part of the Mythopoetic Men's Movement.

The movement basically felt the following:

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Men no longer being comrades who celebrated their masculinity together. Rather, they had become competitors within their workplaces.

Men spending more time in their houses with women than they did with men (in non-competitive terms outside of work). Excessive interaction with women generally kept men from realizing their internal masculinity.

Feminism bringing attention to the 'feminine voice.' Through this, the mythopoetic men felt that their voices had been muted (though Bly and others are careful in not blaming feminism for this).

The separation of men from their fathers kept them from being truly initiated into manhood, and was a source of emotional damage.

Men were suffering further emotional damage due to feminist accusations about sexism. Men should celebrate their differences from women, rather than feeling guilty about them.

Men being discouraged from expressing their emotions. Male inexpressivity is an epidemic and does not correspond to their "deep masculine" natures.

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So basically the term was referring to:

1. Men only interacting with other men in a competitive manner - lack of "boys night out", etc.

2. Men having to work to the point that their only off time was at home. Nothing wrong with spending time with your spouse, but the movement felt that should be balanced with #1.

3. Feminism without a counter-balance (and keep in mind we're talking 80s feminism, not today's version).

4. Fathers being worked so much that boys had little bonding time with them. I know there were times that my father worked so much he had to take time off to make sure we got to spend some time together. It got better as he moved up, but for a while there we barely saw him as he worked 60+ hour work weeks.

5. Cries of sexism. Some were founded, but a lot weren't, and men were also getting lumped together making it hard to celebrate the differences between men and women (the boss who gropes his secretary being mentioned in the same breadth as a co-worker who complimented his female colleague's hair, for example)

6. Men being told to "not show emotion" to the point of becoming robotic.
Mom died? Suck it up.
Grandfather got cancer? Don't you dare cry, boy.
Beloved family pet passed away? Only pussies cry over dead animals.

I can at least vouch of how bad #6 can be; after my mom died, my father was so ingrained in the "Don't show emotion" mentality that he shut off. Didn't eat, barely enjoyed anything. Lost over 100lbs (which wasn't a bad thing in general, but the way he did it was rough). My brother and I called him every day, half expecting that one day he wouldn't answer because he'd ended it. Thank God that wasn't the case, and he's in a much better place now.


So basically is there such a thing as toxic masculinity?
Sure.

Is it what Hollywood TELLS us is toxic masculinity?
frick no.

Toxic masculinity is "be a robot, only ever interact with other men in a competitive way, and have almost no male friends to just hang out with".

Toxic masculinity isn't "being a man" or "finding women sexy" or "being the breadwinner".

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We need to get back to steroids...just plain and simple.

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There definitely is. Just like anything to an extreme is toxic.

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Ok, define toxic and extreme masculinity. Then do the same for femininity.

I don’t disagree with any of that. It just seems like only one side of the coin is being addressed culturally these days.

The problem is it’s hard to build character arcs when those characters start without the flaws you mentioned. What’s happening is nobody can relate to them and they aren’t interesting to the general public which makes the stories they’re involved in uninteresting.