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re: Ken Burns’ The US and the Holocaust
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:16 pm to Bronc
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:16 pm to Bronc
quote:
Oh no, I look bad to the Nazi sympathizers and Holocaust pacifists!!
Lol. All you ever do is create golems to attack. It's hilarious. Always up on your soapbox when, in reality, you're the dumbest and most strident person in every conversation. You're tedious and boring. Get over yourself.
0
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
normal citizens had no idea about concentration camps
This was literally from 1933
The increasing occurrence of atrocities and the Nazi Party's escalatory activities was well known in America.
No one is denying that America had all manner of rationalizations for why we stood on the sidelines as long as we did. Barely creaked the door open on Jewish immigrants running from persecution, violence, and increasing atrocity. The point is we did, and from a moral and strategic position that was wrong. You seem to want to take the position of oh well, nothing to see or learn here, why?
quote:
Communists are evil and were (still are, to be exact) a threat.
From fricking who
China? They are about as communist as Elizabeth Warren is Native American.
You sound as outside reality as the Nazis in Germany declaring every centrist and political opposition is secretly working on a deep state communist takeover plot.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:27 pm to Bronc
quote:
This was literally from 1933
Sorry. I will rephrase, since you're not intelligent.
Normal citizens have no idea that concentration camps were being used as slaughter houses.
quote:
The point is we did, and from a moral and strategic position that was wrong.
From your hindsight bias-built soapbox, yes, 100%.
That's the problem. You can only think emotionally about this and refuse a rational, intelligent, and nuanced view.
quote:
From fricking who
China? They are about as communist as Elizabeth Warren is Native American.
China just consolidated power in a supreme ruler again with a lifetime term, which is as Communist as you can get.
China is an evil, authoritarian, Communist state, no matter how much they give the perception that they permit "free trade".
quote:
You sound as outside reality as the Nazis in Germany declaring every centrist and political opposition is secretly working on a deep state communist takeover plot.
Bro you're the one on here pushing the Communist rhetoric that we have to be worried about actual Nazis in 2022
There are a few pockets of yokles in the US that have no political power who are legit Nazis. Most of the time their power is being able to self-publish their books.
The world still have actual Communist nations and crypto-communist influence spread around our country (especially in the partisan media-news-academic arenas). Communism was a much stronger authoritarian ideology. Both are evil, but Communism had real longevity. Nazism died in 1945 for all intents and purposes.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Normal citizens have no idea that concentration camps were being used as slaughter houses.
The Wannsee Conference where the Final Solution was actually discussed wasn't until January 1942. I don't think pure extermination camps were used until late 1941.
I don't read about it that much, but that is my understanding. Until that time, it was mostly forced labor camps and ghettos, both also horrific.
I think if photos like this where you see children being marched to their deaths had been available and widely circulated in say...1936, the early response to Hitler would have been much different. This was 80 years ago, and this photo stirs emotion in me now.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 1:54 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:57 pm to Bronc
quote:
Commies, Jews, Da Gays...They catastrophized all of them as being the real existential threats(that Nazis actually were) as a means to generate a base of support using the politics of outrage, fear, anger, jingoism, finger-pointing and through those "Big Lies" justify ever increasing acts of escalatory violence and totalitarian actions and policies against their political opposition.
Thank you though for proving my point about your Nazi sympathies OML, truly
Yeah, because there are lots of people who are both pro-Nazi and pro-Jew. Did your mother drop you on your head or did you have to work on becoming a disgusting idiotic commie cocksucker?
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:00 pm to Bronc
quote:
I mean tell me you are a nazi sympathizer without saying you are a nazi sympathizer...
Yeah, because if you acknowledge the Holodomor or Mao’s Great Leap Forward then they’re automatically Nazi sympathizers. You are morally no different from a Holocaust denier. I hope your employer find out you’re a communist and fire your arse as all communists should be. A communist can’t compete in the free market without being a massive hypocrite, so your company will be doing you a favor. If you want to be a communist, then go live on a commune.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:03 pm to Bronc
quote:
Says the guy that just implied maybe the Nazis were onto something with their manufactured red scare
All you have to do is look at Red October, you stupid commie cocksucker. I’m sorry, just because the Nazis were evil does not make you the good guys. It’s a bad guy vs bad guy story. Communists are evil, and you’d kill just as many people as the Nazis did to achieve your communist utopia. In fact people like you have actually killed more than the Nazis did. Read the Black Book of Communism, but I guess everything in there is a lie. You’re a fricking scumbag.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 2:04 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:05 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Sorry. I will rephrase, since you're not intelligent.
Normal citizens have no idea that concentration camps were being used as slaughter houses.
Again, yes, they did
Not to the extent that they would turn into, but the accounting of continual and escalating jailing, suppression, violence, and frequent atrocity was widely reported. On page 3 I posted public polling AFTER the Kristallnacht attacks that burned, jailed, and killed 100's of Jews and their businesses. That was AFTER years of reports about increasing frequency and atrocity within concentration camps and in German cities toward Jews and various social and political opposition groups.
Im not sure why you are trying to draw some sort of distinction here? Are you of the mind that unless they are literally killing thousands of Jews a day that America and American sentiment was correct in being xenophobic of Jewish immigration? Help me understand this argument of yours here?
quote:
China just consolidated power in a supreme ruler again with a lifetime term, which is as Communist as you can get.
So an authoritarian regime?
Communism = Marxist philosophy of a worker driven, democratically established and maintained form of central government control of the means of production and distribution of a country in the pursuit of a classless, centrally planned society.
China is no more that today than North Korea is a "democratic-Republic" as their namesake states.
Despite OLM's screeching, you wont find me endorsing any Marxist revolution, as it is a fundamentally flawed ideology as Marx wrote it, that fails to adequately address issues of scarcity or basic human nature, let alone it's further bastardizations in the form of Maoism/Stalinism, which turned the loose skin of an unworkable political philosophy into an imperialist seeking authoritarian power.
quote:
. Nazism died in 1945 for all intents and purposes.
As a German political party, sure. But Nazism is just a form of fascism or right-wing authoritarianism. And considering how much the right LOVES Victor Orban these days, and to this day defends Jan 6th, the notion that the ideas that grew to become the fascist movements across the globe in the interwar period is definitely not dead.
And its almost like there might be lessons to be learned at how America took to those philosophies(and other cultural and social ideas) in the 30's and what sort of wisdom, lessons, and possible warnings we could derive to inform us today?
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 2:08 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:07 pm to Bronc
quote:
This was literally from 1933
Ok, and how many people have the communists imprisoned and killed over the years? You really think you’re going to look good at the end of this? How many people died in the Great Leap Forward, commie?
quote:
From fricking who
Uhhh, China you fricking retard. Also Vladimir Putin is trying to re-establish the Soviet Union.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:07 pm to OMLandshark
I understand communism.
Marxism just doen’t make sense in the modern world and Leninism is just totalitarianism with a red flag.
Marxism just doen’t make sense in the modern world and Leninism is just totalitarianism with a red flag.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:15 pm to Bronc
quote:
Communism = Marxist philosophy of a worker driven, democratically established and maintained form of central government control of the means of production and distribution of a country in the pursuit of a classless, centrally planned society.
So, authoritarian government then.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:25 pm to MRF
quote:
So, authoritarian government then.
If you are going by actual Marx/Communist philosophy/prediction, The supposed idea was that workers, through democratic elections, or worker uprisings against kings or dictators, would establish a new democratically maintained classless society that was no longer beholden to kings or capitalist constraints or influence.
Considering this seems to never happen or be sustainable as stated, it would seem Marx was pretty off base.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:39 pm to Bronc
Coughlin was a huge supporter of FDR and called the New Deal “Christ’s Deal”. You are a fricking sub-moron.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:45 pm to HueyLongJr
quote:
Coughlin was a huge supporter of FDR and called the New Deal “Christ’s Deal”. You are a fricking sub-moron.
The irony of your username aside, he was an early supporter that turned on him hard and fast.
Called him Communist-lite and too friendly to Jews. He literally created an opposition party with the goal of establishing a Republican alternative to unseat Roosevelt and challenge New Deal policies.
quote:
Social Justice was controversial for printing antisemitic polemics such as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Coughlin claimed that Marxist atheism in Europe was a Jewish plot against America. The December 5, 1938, issue of Social Justice included an article by Coughlin which reportedly closely resembled a speech made by Joseph Goebbels on September 13, 1935, attacking Jews and Communists, with some sections being copied verbatim by Coughlin from an English translation of the Goebbels speech.
quote:
The National Union for Social Justice served as a foundation for the formation of a third political party, called the Union. It was formed to challenge Roosevelt in the election of 1936. Its founding members included Father Charles E. Coughlin, activist Francis Townsend, and politician Gerald L. K. Smith. Their goal was to propose a populist alternative to the New Deal reforms made by Roosevelt, as well as to help draw democratic voters away from Roosevelt so a Republican could be voted into office. This short-lived party broke up following the re-election of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1936.[5]
As always, drawing a straight political line from the 30's to today is fraught without acknowledging the ways in which the Civil Rights era upended and restructured politics in this country, but Father Coughlin very much embodied and channeled a lot of the xenophobic Nazi/anti-Communist sympathies that underpinned the not insignificant social support for the Nazis and opposition to Jewish refugees of that time.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 3:00 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:57 pm to Bronc
Now post the platform of the NUSJ so we can see how right wing it is.
Here’s a hint. Living wages. Nationalizing industries, human rights over property rights. Many more.
Again, you are a sub-moron.
Here’s a hint. Living wages. Nationalizing industries, human rights over property rights. Many more.
Again, you are a sub-moron.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 2:58 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 2:59 pm to Bronc
quote:
Im not sure why you are trying to draw some sort of distinction here? Are you of the mind that unless they are literally killing thousands of Jews a day that America and American sentiment was correct in being xenophobic of Jewish immigration? Help me understand this argument of yours here?
The actual extreme crime was killing thousands of Jews, which occurred well after the new article you posted.
Again, hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing across the Atlantic Ocean AFTER passing through multiple countries happened, how many times, prior to WW2? I'm going to say 0. You add in legitimate slaughter of those people and you may get a historic change in policy/mindset.
Again, you have to put this in perspective. You're applying both 70 years of hindsight and scholarship WITH modern standards (which didn't even really change until after these atrocities were discovered but really didn't change until after the fall of the USSR in the 90s when globalism started).
quote:
So an authoritarian regime?
Communism is by its nature authoritarian. That's why everywhere Communism has been tried ended up that way.
quote:
Communism = Marxist philosophy of a worker driven, democratically established and maintained form of central government control of the means of production and distribution of a country in the pursuit of a classless, centrally planned society.
Which requires authoritarianism or else it dissolves immediately.
quote:
But Nazism is just a form of fascism or right-wing authoritarianism.
quote:
the notion that the ideas that grew to become the fascist movements across the globe in the interwar period is definitely not dead.
I was speaking in the US, and it is.
You think these people you're scare of will support eradicating socialist policies like Medicare or Social Security?
quote:
And its almost like there might be lessons to be learned at how America took to those philosophies(and other cultural and social ideas) in the 30's and what sort of wisdom, lessons, and possible warnings we could derive to inform us today?
That's already been done by more benign and efficient methods (like international trade and the spread of democratic institutions across the globe after the fall of Communism). Again, why it's stupid to use 2022 standards to criticize 1930s actions.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:09 pm to HueyLongJr
quote:
Now post the platform of the NUSJ so we can see how right wing it is.
Here’s a hint. Living wages. Nationalizing industries, human rights over property rights. Many more.
Again, you are a sub-moron.
Nazis also claimed support for some of those things, as they were populist ideas with the rural/small town folks that comprised of their base of support.
But at the end of the day they cared little, if at all, for those things in practice. Hitler claimed to care about the laborer and the farmer, but he ended up attacking unions when they didn't support him and establishing permanent and structural alliances with the very industrialists he claimed to rail against, which Coughlin had no ill words against. What animated them was power and punishing/suppressing/eradicating their perceived enemies. Which were foreign immigrants, Communists, and Jews. As Coughlin himself said, "It is fascism or communism. We are at the crossroads—I take the road to fascism"
You cant be more clear with where his heart lied.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 3:11 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:12 pm to GetCocky11
The Rape of Nanking isn't an American story, either. The Japanese destruction during their island hopping campaign, which was directly stopped/liberated by the Americans, has a greater likelihood of being an American tale than the Holocaust.
It's not ours to "come to terms with." We're not responsible.
It's not ours to "come to terms with." We're not responsible.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:16 pm to Bronc
quote:
manufactured red scare
It wasn’t manufactured, it was real.
Tell me you know nothing about the 1918 November Revolution and the Bavarian Soviet Republic without telling me you know nothing about the 1918 November Revolution and the Bavarian Soviet Republic. How about the 1923 Hamburg Communist Uprising? Saxony, Thuringia?
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The actual extreme crime was killing thousands of Jews, which occurred well after the new article you posted.
Again, hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing across the Atlantic Ocean AFTER passing through multiple countries happened, how many times, prior to WW2? I'm going to say 0. You add in legitimate slaughter of those people and you may get a historic change in policy/mindset.
Again, you have to put this in perspective. You're applying both 70 years of hindsight and scholarship WITH modern standards (which didn't even really change until after these atrocities were discovered but really didn't change until after the fall of the USSR in the 90s when globalism started).
This is a lot of words to basically try and promote historical ignorance and excuse moral failure and strategic blindness. You seem hellbent on learning nothing from this period to inform our thinking today, and offer excuses on behalf of misguided thinking of that period, with the suggestion to do nothing else with that history. Which is an odd posture to take. To see history and moral and strategic failing therein and say, nah, nothing to learn here!
quote:
Communism is by its nature authoritarian. That's why everywhere Communism has been tried ended up that way.
I'd certainly argue as Marx constructed it it is at odds with human nature and basic issues of scarcity, but 1.) actual Communism has never been tried as written, and 2.) I don't necessarily disagree that if it would be, that it would require, much as libertarianism would, non-democratic intervention to maintain it's purity because at it's core, all or nothing philosophies are not sustainable thru purely democratic processes.
quote:
You think these people you're scare of will support eradicating socialist policies like Medicare or Social Security?
You understand the Nazi's maintained Bismarck's National Health Insurance system correct? The fear of modern fascist sentiment and movements is not the potential loss of Medicare, its the fascism....
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