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re: Ken Burns’ The US and the Holocaust
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:15 pm to RoyalAir
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:15 pm to RoyalAir
quote:
Can't wait to see Ken Burns' scathing documentary on the Holodomor, the Gulags, and the anti-Russian Bolshevist machine.
But we don't talk about those things, which we're profoundly more murderous, hateful, and violent.
You are aware Ken Burns focuses on AMERICAN history correct?
I'd certainly be interested in a Cold War Ken Burns, but not sure how you actually do it without it turning into something like the 28 part CNN series from the late 90's(which was still not removed enough from the Cold War to be truly reflective).
Cause the Cold War would cover everything from immediate post-war repositioning after Russia refused to return land and sought nuclear deterrence, to McCarthyism, Vietnam, Martin Luther King/Civil Rights(as the government attempting to paint Civil Rights as agitprop and assassinating leaders), up thru the 80's and into the 90's
Would be fascinating, including how so much of Russian political culture is derived from hardliners opining for a return to so-called Soviet greatness and how that continues to create influences in America today.
1
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:25 pm to Bronc
quote:
You are aware Ken Burns focuses on AMERICAN history correct?
The Holocaust isn't an American story, despite what Hollywood tells us. It's not in our fabric or morality to defend, atone for, or discuss ad nauseum.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:26 pm to hogcard1964
quote:
liberal anti semite
The only thing Coughlin hated more than Communists/socialists was Jews.
quote:
One thing is sure. Democracy is doomed. This is our last election. It is fascism or communism. We are at the crossroads—I take the road to fascism.
As quoted in
“Coughlin, Lemke, and the Union Party,” Dale Kramer, Minneapolis, Farmers Book Store, 1936. Also in “What’s Behind the Christian Front?” Norman Thomas, New York, Workers Defense League, 1939, p. 15 [2]
quote:
I have dedicated my life to fight against the heinous rottenness of modern capitalism because it robs the laborer of this world's goods. But blow for blow I shall strike against Communism, because it robs us of the next world's happiness.
As quoted in The Populist Persuasion: An American History, Micheal Kazin, New York: Basic Book, 1995, p. 109, speech in 1935
quote:
[W]e shall barter our sovereignty as a free, independent nation or accept the decisions of a World Court as a super-nation to manage our affairs… While we sympathize with the Serbian or the Russian, with the Jew in Germany or the Christian in Russia, the major portion of our sympathy is extended to our dispossessed farmer, our disconsolate laborers who are being crushed at this moment while the spirit of internationalism runs rampant in the corridors of the Capitol, hoping to participate in setting the world aright while chaos clamors at our doors.
Detroit News (January 28, 1935)
quote:
If Jews persist in supporting communism directly or indirectly, that will be regrettable. By their failure to use the press, the radio and the banking house, where they stand so prominently, to fight communism as vigorously as they Nazism, the Jews invite the charge of being supporters of communism.
Detroit News (November 28, 1938)
He remained a rather strong supporter of Nazi policy up thru the Pearl Harbor, when sentiment finally turned against him, but there wasnt a problem in the world he couldnt blame Jews(or globalists/internationalists), Communists, or increasingly Roosevelt for.
Like the Nazis, he coated some of his language in the criticisms of capitalism from Marx, but his actual ideology was simply rooted in what he hated, and what to do to get rid of them, and would gladly stand with those that eschewed his other ideals to achieve it.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 12:32 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:28 pm to RoyalAir
quote:
The Holocaust isn't an American story, despite what Hollywood tells us. It's not in our fabric or morality to defend, atone for, or discuss ad nauseum.
How we responded to it(and didnt), very much is.
Especially in hindsight when it is now clear that delay was never going to be a long-term option, cause one way or another Japan/Germany's aggression would reach our shores and interests. To which then the only possible defense is we should just accept a potential Nazi and Japanese empire across Asia and Europe and promise to offer no aid, all but guaranteeing massive more amounts of bloodhsed and oppression for generations to come.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 12:30 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:34 pm to Bronc
quote:
You've made it clear your beliefs, like fascists before you, simply work in opposition to the ideals of a free and fair society. You find no issue with using state or mob violence to enforce your ways of thinking and suppress/kill those you disagree with.
Oh frick off. Blatant lie, but commies that is your bread and butter.
quote:
One only needs to remember back to your post defending the Nazi treatment of perceived leftists in their country. As I said, you would have been cheering on the jailing of socialists in Nazi Germany.
You do know that the Nazis largely took power due to fearing commies like you coming to power, right? And yeah, Hitler first took out the communists when he came to power. Bronc, you brought the conditions that make a Nazi or fascist state possible.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:35 pm to Bronc
quote:
It was clear even then when Hans Blix was on the floor of the UN begging the US to give them another week cause Saddam literally swung the doors open to inspectors to prevent invasion and the evidence they were finding was in stark contrast to Bush's rhetoric that shite was not on the up and up.
I don't care about the inspection aspect.
I'm trying to gauge just how hard or flexible your view on saving persecuted peoples, is. Iraq was also about Kurds and what Sadam did to them, or, at the least, if your moral guide is strong enough, that justified our whole invasion regardless of what lies were told to start it.
So you get to answer the question you purposefully ignored that I asked about how you view the invasion in hindsight.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:35 pm to Bronc
quote:
You here to defend Israel's ethnic cleaning too?
Oh please. It’s the one thing you and the Nazis have in common is blaming the Jews for everything. You’re not as different from them as you think. The difference is fascists are nationalists while communists are globalists. Basically it. Always ends in death and destruction.
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 12:37 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:38 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
You do know that the Nazis largely took power due to fearing commies like you coming to power, right? And yeah, Hitler first took out the communists when he came to power. Bronc, you brought the conditions that make a Nazi or fascist state possible.
Commies, Jews, Da Gays...They catastrophized all of them as being the real existential threats(that Nazis actually were) as a means to generate a base of support using the politics of outrage, fear, anger, jingoism, finger-pointing and through those "Big Lies" justify ever increasing acts of escalatory violence and totalitarian actions and policies against their political opposition.
Thank you though for proving my point about your Nazi sympathies OML, truly
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:41 pm to Bronc
quote:
Commies, Jews, Da Gays...They catastrophized all of them as being the real existential threats(that Nazis actually were)
I mean we dispatched with Nazis in less than a decade. How long did the USSR terrorize the globe after that? 50 years?
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:46 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I'm trying to gauge just how hard or flexible your view on saving persecuted peoples, is. Iraq was also about Kurds and what Sadam did to them,
quote:
So you get to answer the question you purposefully ignored that I asked about how you view the invasion in hindsight.
Quite gaslighting
You
quote:
Were you in favor of the illegal US invasion of Iraq of 2003-2004 in real time?
Do you defend the (illegal) US invasion today?
You asked my opinion on the invasion, you got the answer.
But you really trying to equivocate the invasion of Iraq with the holocaust? In the name of defending American inaction? Just make that clear to me and we can move forward.
Never thought this country would get to the point where so many are openly declaring "well, maybe the Nazis were right...."
quote:
I mean we dispatched with Nazis in less than a decade. How long did the USSR terrorize the globe after that? 50 years?
I mean tell me you are a nazi sympathizer without saying you are a nazi sympathizer...
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 12:47 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:50 pm to Bronc
quote:
You asked my opinion on the invasion, you got the answer.
You didn't answer the 2nd question, but I'll assume by your comment nothing changed.
So you are very flexible in your moral standard for invasion based on persecuted underclass. Got it.
Now apply pre-international globalism standards and worldviews of the WWII era and you'll realize why your argument is very poor.
Sometimes shitty things happen to innocent people. There aren't enough resources in the world to fix all of them. This argument is amplified with each year that you go back in time.
quote:
But you really trying to equivocate the invasion of Iraq with the holocaust?
No, as I said, I'm figuring out how flexible your proclaimed moral standards are, and you've admitted they're quite flexible. You should decrease the size of your soap box for this reason, as well as for judging standards of the US pre-WWII within this context.
quote:
Never thought this country would get to the point where so many are openly declaring "well, maybe the Nazis were right...."
Now THAT is one straw man
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:50 pm to Bronc
quote:
I mean tell me you are a nazi sympathizer without saying you are a nazi sympathizer...
What?
Nazis and Communists are both evil.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:54 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
You didn't answer the 2nd question, but I'll assume by your comment nothing changed.
So you are very flexible in your moral standard for invasion based on persecuted underclass. Got it.
Now apply pre-international globalism standards and worldviews of the WWII era and you'll realize why your argument is very poor.
Sometimes shitty things happen to innocent people. There aren't enough resources in the world to fix all of them. This argument is amplified with each year that you go back in time.
I actually did answer your question dipshit.
Like in the 30's I would have had no issue admitting refugees fleeing Iraqi violence(especially that which we created), same as I would have no issue with admitting Jews. I have no issue engaging militarily when ACTUAL wars of aggression require intervention. Iraq was not that, at all.
You seem to be taking the opposite position to that, explain and defend?
quote:
Now THAT is one straw man
Says the guy that just implied maybe the Nazis were onto something with their manufactured red scare
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:55 pm to LuckySo-n-So
Getting back to the actual documentary... I thought Episode 1 was very well done and look forward to the next 2.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:56 pm to Bronc
Bronc, STFU man...or woman...or whatever pronoun you favor. This is a really bad look for you. Only gets worse with each thread you derail with your bullshite.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 12:58 pm to TheLSUriot
Oh no, I look bad to the Nazi sympathizers and Holocaust pacifists!!
how shall I ever live with myself...
Do you not have a SheHulk episode to melt about or something?
how shall I ever live with myself...
Do you not have a SheHulk episode to melt about or something?
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 1:00 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:02 pm to Bronc
quote:
You seem to be taking the opposite position to that,
I'm not at all. Each situation has to be weighed on its own, based on a multitude of factors.
Judging each situation in hindsight has to be done within the context, framework, and beliefs of the time, based on the factors that were important within that time. Otherwise, it's just masturbation because you're just doing something to make yourself feel better without any productive substance.
We were pretty isolationist in the 30s dealing with a Great Depression. Also, while we knew there was conflict (including violence), normal citizens had no idea about concentration camps and all the terrible stuff we later discovered. You have to judge American actions within these contexts and not a hindsight-based, 2022 review where you have access to 70 years of scholarship on this subject, with the post-WW2, post-Cold War, moral expansion across the globe.
From a purely objective view in 2022 with our hindsight bias and knowledge of what was happening, yes, it is a terrible thing.
From the US view in the 1930s? Not so much.
Life is like that.
quote:
Says the guy that just implied maybe the Nazis were onto something with their manufactured red scare
No Communism was a threat. Only idiots don't agree. We literally had a Cold War for 50 years following WW2 due to their bullshite.
Nazis are evil and were a threat.
Communists are evil and were (still are, to be exact) a threat.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:03 pm to RoyalAir
quote:
The Holocaust isn't an American story,
American troops liberated concentration camps. Other than Israel, more Jews live in America than any other nation. It may be a footnote rather than a main chapter in the American story, but ripples from the Holocaust can be found in most American cities and towns. It might be one person or one family but it’s there.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:05 pm to LuckySo-n-So
Does he get into the Operation Paperclip angle post-war?
Posted on 9/21/22 at 1:08 pm to RoyalAir
quote:
The Holocaust isn't an American story
I'd argue against that.
American military liberation of the camps, the Nuremburg Trials, ex-Nazis moving to America, Holocaust survivors moving to America, Jews who escaped before the war moving to America, the MS St Louis.
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