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Message
re: Ken Burns’ The US and the Holocaust
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:25 pm to Philzilla2k
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:25 pm to Philzilla2k
quote:
It wasn’t manufactured, it was real.
Tell me you know nothing about the 1918 November Revolution and the Bavarian Soviet Republic without telling me you know nothing about the 1918 November Revolution and the Bavarian Soviet Republic. How about the 1923 Hamburg Communist Uprising? Saxony, Thuringia?
More thinly veiled Nazi sympathizing huh?
Next you want to defend the Beer Hall Putsch?
0
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:30 pm to Bronc
quote:
You seem hellbent on learning nothing from this period
Wait what?
My argument is that we are making arguments from a place of 70 years of hindsight and scholarship. What is implied in that statement?
quote:
and offer excuses on behalf of misguided thinking of that period,
It's not an excuse, and it's a more rational analysis than an emotional appeal that serves no practical purpose.
Shitting on people because they didn't have the data or advanced societal morality doesn't do anything except inflate the egos of contemporary non-thinkers (who ironically think of themselves are brilliant for doing so). All it does in reality is state that these people making the decisions that we're judging didn't have the data or advanc3ed societal morality that we have today. What does that do, exactly? How does that help humans in 2022?
quote:
actual Communism has never been tried as written
Because it's by nature authoritarian. Marx is just a fricking idiot. You're removing property rights and subjecting everyone, in the best interpretation, to the will of the masses. When everyone owns everything, nobody owns anything, which means your life and individual nature have no value. You are the collective's to do with as it wishes.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:31 pm to Bronc
quote:
If you are going by actual Marx/Communist philosophy/prediction, The supposed idea was that workers, through democratic elections, or worker uprisings against kings or dictators, would establish a new democratically maintained classless society that was no longer beholden to kings or capitalist constraints or influence.
What you’re describing is authoritarian. Marx is at its core an authoritarian, repressive, evil ideology based on greed, envy, and domination of others. It wasn’t perverted to become authoritarian communism, rather it naturally manifests itself as repressive and authoritarian.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:43 pm to Bronc
Wow, what a defensive little troll you are.
I have personally been to both the Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II - Birkenau camp sites among others. Powerful is the way I describe my experiences there. So I know a lot about this snippet of history and when viewed under accurate context (which you seem unable to grasp) makes your stance on this borderline ridiculous from the start. Others have tried to have a rational conversation with you but you have since regressed into 100% contrarian at this point. As I said before, it is a bad look for you.
I have personally been to both the Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II - Birkenau camp sites among others. Powerful is the way I describe my experiences there. So I know a lot about this snippet of history and when viewed under accurate context (which you seem unable to grasp) makes your stance on this borderline ridiculous from the start. Others have tried to have a rational conversation with you but you have since regressed into 100% contrarian at this point. As I said before, it is a bad look for you.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:49 pm to TheLSUriot
quote:
Wow, what a defensive little troll you are.
He keeps getting fed responses though
Posted on 9/21/22 at 3:51 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
My argument is that we are making arguments from a place of 70 years of hindsight and scholarship. What is implied in that statement?
Of course we are looking at this period with hindsight. No one has argued differently. You though, seem to have some aversion to doing that, or to judging them in their moral failings, even within the framework of that time. Again, its a weird posture to take.
Your's continues to be indistinguishable from an argument in the promotion of maintaining historical ignorance.
quote:
advanc3ed societal morality that we have today.
I mean, its pretty clear we knew it was bad....
From the same poll
We just didnt care.
It might be one thing if this sort of sentiment was a relic as you infer, but literally we keep repeating it:
LINK
LINK
quote:
Marx is just a fricking idiot. You're removing property rights and subjecting everyone, in the best interpretation, to the will of the masses. When everyone owns everything, nobody owns anything, which means your life and individual nature have no value. You are the collective's to do with as it wishes.
Do you hate Marx or democracy? Seems you started talking about Marx but ended up just angry at democracy....
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 3:53 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:00 pm to MRF
quote:
What you’re describing is authoritarian. Marx is at its core an authoritarian, repressive, evil ideology based on greed, envy, and domination of others. It wasn’t perverted to become authoritarian communism, rather it naturally manifests itself as repressive and authoritarian.
"Ideology based on greed, envy, and domination of others."...You just described unfettered and unchecked capitalism my man.
Marxism may be untenable, probably never to actually be implemented or sustained as written, but it is literally the opposite of what you describe. And the reason it is likely forever untenable is for the reasons you list, people are greedy, envious, and wish to hierarchically organize in almost everything we do.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:06 pm to Bronc
quote:
"Ideology based on greed, envy, and domination of others."...You just described unfettered and unchecked capitalism my man. Marxism may be untenable, probably never to actually be implemented or sustained as written, but it is literally the opposite of what you describe. And the reason it is likely forever untenable is for the reasons you list, people are greedy, envious, and wish to hierarchically organize in almost everything we do.
Marxism is based on envy and greed. X has something I don’t have, so I’m going to revolt and force him at the point of a gun to give it to me and my friends. That’s Marxism/communism, and it is greed and envy in action. It is evil in its core and intent.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:09 pm to MRF
quote:
Marxism is based on envy and greed. X has something I don’t have, so I’m going to revolt and force him at the point of a gun to give it to me and my friends. That’s Marxism/communism, and it is greed and envy in action. It is evil in its core and intent.
Again, that is literally the opposite of it. What you just described is anarchy + monkey brain human nature.
There's plenty to tear down about Marx's Communism, I'm not sure why we need to misrepresent it and use appeals to emotion over facts and reasoning to do that?
Or heck, why in a htread about nazi symapthy/indifference in interwar America, all some of you want to do is whatabout Communism and Stalinism?
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:11 pm to Bronc
quote:
You though, seem to have some aversion to doing that, or to judging them in their moral failings, even within the framework of that time. Again, its a weird posture to take.
It's not weird. It's just not emotional.
We know that, based on our current morality and standards, it was wrong. We know that because (1) we have advanced (primarily due to capitalism and trade proliferating around the world) and (2) we have already done tons of scholarship and study on the past.
What does applying (1) our standards (2) based on this hindsight we learn from scholarship to judge their decisions in real time accomplish? We don't learn anything (we already did in the scholarship). We don't advance any +EV discussion (we just get to shite on people in the past, likely for political purposes). There really isn't anything rational or constructive about applying modern standards and understanding to the past.
All the things you think we may learn were already uncovered. We use that (with a dose of freedom via capitalism) to advance (which we already have, which is how we have such a hindsight bias when trying to apply modern standards). Like I said previously, this is just masturbation. You think you're doing something positive but it's only self pleasure with no actual product.
quote:
Do you hate Marx or democracy? Seems you started talking about Marx but ended up just angry at democracy....
I don't like absolute democracy, which is what crypto-Communists try to sneak into conversations as "democracy".
Constitutional republics that rely on democratic principles can be solid (as long as the constitutions provides strong enough limits on government). Pure democracies are hell on earth (like Communism).
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:29 pm to Bronc
quote:
Again, that is literally the opposite of it.
perhaps. but in order to implement it, they MUST create an oppressed and oppressor
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:33 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
It's not weird. It's just not emotional.
We know that, based on our current morality and standards, it was wrong. We know that because (1) we have advanced (primarily due to capitalism and trade proliferating around the world) and (2) we have already done tons of scholarship and study on the past.
What does applying (1) our standards (2) based on this hindsight we learn from scholarship to judge their decisions in real time accomplish? We don't learn anything (we already did in the scholarship). We don't advance any +EV discussion (we just get to shite on people in the past, likely for political purposes). There really isn't anything rational or constructive about applying modern standards and understanding to the past.
All the things you think we may learn were already uncovered. We use that (with a dose of freedom via capitalism) to advance (which we already have, which is how we have such a hindsight bias when trying to apply modern standards). Like I said previously, this is just masturbation. You think you're doing something positive but it's only self pleasure with no actual product.
You just keep getting more and more bizarre in this promotion of ignorance. The idea that there is some objective endpoint, and that we have already reached it, in terms of the lessons, understandings, and applications of history to our present day knowledge is absurd(which as a society is ever in flux as people age, die out, or forget). As to is the seeming suggestion that we should just stop doing it cause vague notions of "scholarly works" has been done.
In reality, one of the things this documentary has shown not just in this thread(including you and your lack of knowledge of how much Americans were aware of atrocities towards Jews in Germany from 33-41) but in society writ large, is that the lessons and knowledge of history need to be refreshed with time and new generations. And that there are always new things we can learn and apply to the present from studying history.
quote:
What does applying (1) our standards (2) based on this hindsight we learn from scholarship to judge their decisions in real time accomplish?
Maybe to educate and impress upon a new generation not to follow down the same paths?
Paths which I just showed you we seem to keep going down...
My guess is you would suddenly have a lightbulb go off if this was instead a show about your boogieman of Stalinism/communism, which you cant stop wanting to let everyone know how bad it is in a thread about nazism....
quote:
I don't like absolute democracy, which is what crypto-Communists try to sneak into conversations as "democracy".
Constitutional republics that rely on democratic principles can be solid (as long as the constitutions provides strong enough limits on government). Pure democracies are hell on earth (like Communism).
There is no country on earth that is absolute direct democracy, you need to be more specific.
Similar to how you've been using communism to describe what is more accurate to say Stalinism/Maoism, most people use democracy to describe any and all forms of constitutionally limited democratic republics. Of which there are many
This post was edited on 9/21/22 at 4:35 pm
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:37 pm to Bronc
quote:
The idea that there is some objective endpoint, and that we have already reached it, in terms of the lessons, understandings, and applications of history to our present day knowledge is absurd(
Cool
Literally nobody has argued this
But cool
quote:
As to is the seeming suggestion that we should just stop doing it cause vague ntions of "scholarly works: has been done.
Is English not your first language or something?
Again, literally nobody has argued this, either
quote:
Maybe to educate and impress upon a new generation not to follow down the same paths?
We don't need to judge the actions of the past when doing this if our moral standards have already evolved. Just teach the modern standards.
quote:
There is no country on earth that is absolute direct democracy
Because they quickly devolve into authoritarianism, usually Communism.
YOU are the one who made the "Communism sounds like direct democracy" gotcha
quote:
Similar to how you've been using communism to describe what is more accurate to say Stalinism/Maoism
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:43 pm to Bronc
quote:
Again, that is literally the opposite of it. What you just described is anarchy + monkey brain human nature.
Marxism sees someone with property, or money, or a factory. They don’t have it. They see that as an injustice because they are envious, and they force that person to give it up for their own use. That is greed and envy at work. That is the heart of Marxism and communism.
Posted on 9/21/22 at 4:59 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Cool
Literally nobody has argued this
But cool
You serious?
quote:
What does applying (1) our standards (2) based on this hindsight we learn from scholarship to judge their decisions in real time accomplish? We don't learn anything (we already did in the scholarship). We don't advance any +EV discussion (we just get to shite on people in the past, likely for political purposes). There really isn't anything rational or constructive about applying modern standards and understanding to the past.
Makes me think you realized you lost the argument way back when you tried to claim America was ignorant of the treatment of Jews, then after pivoting to this stupid screed that you have also realized is retarded, you are now just gaslighting.
quote:
Is English not your first language or something?
Again, literally nobody has argued this, either
lol, not "advanc3d" enough for you?
quote:
We don't need to judge the actions of the past when doing this if our moral standards have already evolved. Just teach the modern standards.
Cool, so to be clear, don't educate on why Stalinism is bad and why it gained acceptance, just tell them we decided it is bad and leave it at that! Cool idea bro, sure that won't create any issues....
quote:
Because they quickly devolve into authoritarianism, usually Communism.
Despite pretty clear definitions, you still seem to struggle understanding much of anything about this topic, almost like maybe a bit more education on the "whats" and the "why" instead of the perceived modern consensus opinion on the matter would be helpful?
Posted on 9/21/22 at 5:03 pm to Bronc
quote:
America was keenly and firmly aware of the escalatory rhetoric and violence of the Nazis toward Jews/Communists/Socialists/social deviants. Stuff like the Kristallnacht attacks were all over the papers. Which, if you arent familiar, was when Nazis orchestrated a night of violence against Jews and killed hundreds. This was on top of all the other shite they were already beginning to do such as put them in ghettos, strip them of liberties, commit acts of violence, and up the exterminationst rhetoric. Meanwhile, Americans were overwhelmingly opposed to taking in refugees.
Our incredibly progressive diplomat wrote that it “wasn’t that bad” numerous times and downplayed it until it was too obvious.
In the Garden of the Beasts is a great book by Erik Larson where it details that the writing on the wall was there but most of America ignored it and was more interested in getting reparations back from WW1 than what was happening to the Jews.
Posted on 2/7/23 at 11:00 am to LuckySo-n-So
Got around to watching this. Very good, informative, and didn't take the usual Burns large detour into the plight of African Americans of the time.
I recently read Eric Larson's Churchill book, and it was a great companion piece to this series (Churchill desperately needing Roosevelt's help, Roosevelt having to prioritize his efforts towards the Brits, the Jews, and keeping the peace at home.)
Burns obliterates Lindbergh, but the recordings and his writings speak for themselves. I know it's 20/20 hindsight, but anyone thinking that a conquered Europe under one dictator was never going to be an American problem is an idiot. Especially someone who had their finger on the pulse of air technology and knew exactly how quickly intercontinental war would become an even more real threat.
I recently read Eric Larson's Churchill book, and it was a great companion piece to this series (Churchill desperately needing Roosevelt's help, Roosevelt having to prioritize his efforts towards the Brits, the Jews, and keeping the peace at home.)
Burns obliterates Lindbergh, but the recordings and his writings speak for themselves. I know it's 20/20 hindsight, but anyone thinking that a conquered Europe under one dictator was never going to be an American problem is an idiot. Especially someone who had their finger on the pulse of air technology and knew exactly how quickly intercontinental war would become an even more real threat.
Posted on 2/7/23 at 11:21 am to Bronc
Bronc's pronouns are dipshit/dumbass
Posted on 2/7/23 at 11:25 am to SECSolomonGrundy
quote:
frick Ken Burns
His documentaries are so overrated.
Posted on 2/7/23 at 11:53 am to Fewer Kilometers
quote:
Eric Larson's Churchill book,
i was not aware this existed. read garden of the beasts, devil in the white city, and dead wake.
i'll pick this up after i'm done with empire of the summer moon.
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