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Message
re: Discussion on Unforgiven
Posted on 11/17/18 at 2:55 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
Posted on 11/17/18 at 2:55 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
I fully see the sheriff as the bad guy and have no doubt if it. He’s a brutal tyrant who uses his position of power to brutalize his own people. . It’s people like him why we have the 2nd amendment. As we can see, even in his tyranny, he was completely ineffective from stopping anything from happening though.
I also see Munny as a flawed person but not as an anti hero or villain. The movie does t show him do anything bad. So he killed some thugs pretending to be law and order.
The whores.... that’s the old west for you.
I also see Munny as a flawed person but not as an anti hero or villain. The movie does t show him do anything bad. So he killed some thugs pretending to be law and order.
The whores.... that’s the old west for you.
1
Posted on 11/17/18 at 7:42 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
Why are people calling it a battery charge? The guy pulled out a knife and carved up her face. Unless I am remembering wrong, didn't someone pull him off? Wouldn't that be attempted murder?
Posted on 11/17/18 at 8:52 am to brmark70816
If we’re being honest, Unforgiven is the GOAT western. I’m not sure what OP’s gripe is.
Posted on 11/17/18 at 8:52 am to athenslife101
Was Little Bill pretty much in the right?
Interesting discussion from this summer. I am firmly in the camp of Unforgiven as greatest western ever.
Interesting discussion from this summer. I am firmly in the camp of Unforgiven as greatest western ever.
This post was edited on 11/17/18 at 8:53 am
Posted on 11/17/18 at 9:10 am to athenslife101
quote:
He’s a brutal tyrant who uses his position of power to brutalize his own people.
He's a tyrant because he brutalized a self proclaimed gun slinger, and then past, and current killers? I guess you can criticize him in his lack of value on a whore and his ability to build a house.
And thanks for the poster for pointing out the most sympathetic character of the story took the gut shot.
Appears the genius of Unforgiven was a little to subtle for the OP.
Posted on 11/17/18 at 9:18 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
Hackman is the good guy trying to protect people from being murdered over a crime that doesn't remotely sanction a death sentence.
Lol wut. Nah Hackman is a pretty bad tyrant
Posted on 11/17/18 at 9:29 am to jodyHighroller
quote:
When Munny finds out Ned got killed and takes that sip of whiskey...you knew shite was about to hit the fan.
Yep, girls telling him the fate of his best friend and he starts pulling on that bottle. That was it. Body stacking time
Posted on 11/17/18 at 9:37 am to 632627
The Schofield Kid: It don't seem real. How he ain't gonna never breathe again, ever. How he's dead. And the other one, too. All on account of pulling a trigger.
William Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.
William Munny: We all have it coming, Kid
Posted on 11/17/18 at 3:19 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Wouldn't that be attempted murder?
No.
He didn't stab her heart, he cut her face which is aggravated battery (because he used a deadly weapon).
But that's me just using a modern charge.
In the Old West he would have been charged with Mayhem.
Any mutilation, disfigurement, or crippling act done using any instrument.
And it wouldn't have been a severe punishment. Especially not death.
This post was edited on 11/17/18 at 3:21 pm
Posted on 11/17/18 at 5:10 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
Mmmm, I just finished reading about how they’d find an excuse to hang someone for just about anything in Kansas. Now, a lot of hangings got commuted, but that was the original sentence. Maybe Wyoming was different, I don’t know
Posted on 11/18/18 at 12:51 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
Hackman is the good guy trying to protect people from being murdered over a crime that doesn't remotely sanction a death sentence.
In the Old West? Crimes that got the death sentence could cover a lot of ground. Cattle rustling could get you a death sentence, and the logic was the same as that of the whores -- you're interfering with a person's ability to make a living. You might be applying 21st century mores to a more direct and primitive time here.
This post was edited on 11/18/18 at 1:00 am
Posted on 11/18/18 at 1:35 am to randomways
I posted earlier that doing research...he'd probably get charged with mayhem.
And that's not remotely a death sentence.
And it's modern equivalent is aggravated battery.
Stealing a horse was a bigger crime than disfiguring someone.
If he had cut off both her legs and arms...that's still Mayhem.
He didn't do any of that and didn't come close to killing her or even attempting to kill her. You can't kill someone by cutting their face.
You saW the scars in the movie, right?
Hanging Offenses:
Murder
Cheating at cards
Horse Theft
Selling Guns to Indians
And only three of those were taken seriously.
Murder and property theft of the highest order and treason.
There's been a lot of talk about how everyone was hanged in the Old West but it was basically ONLY for these two offenses...
Murder (like today in some States)
And Horse theft...no car alarms back then so everyone had to trust everyone and a break in that trust (not only the value in property) death was considered a necessary deterrent. (and not many people were even hanged for that...it was on the books as a deterrent, not a regular punishment.)
I'm not defending what the Cowboys did...I'm defending Little Bill's response for the time in the movie. It's normal. He's only the villian to some because of our modern sensibilities.
And even at that, Clint in his directing doubles-down and lets the viewer know, the avengers are going WAY overboard...and...the AVENGERS are horrible people and lets see...if you still root for us now?
And we do. Clint tried to make it ambigious and people still rooted for Clint.
That was the point I was making...it didn't matter how awful Clint the director made Munney, we still cast Little Bill as the bad guy because we love Clint.
And Bill is just trying to protect his own and town from ruthless bounty hunters set on killing people in vigilant justice that doesn't meet the crime. They want to murder...
How is that remotely close? And that's Clint's point.
If the whores had laid a bounty to cut-up some Cowboys that would be different but then we wouldn't have this connundrum of morality and Clint would clearly be the good guy.
But here he is willing to murder some Cowboys over cutting a woman that is neither lethal or ever life-threatening...and the movie only talks about it in the sense, that Cowboys won't like her as much to do her...but Skinny says she can still work at a reduced rate.
When the movie says: "all you're gonna give him is a couple of ponies?" That's our modern sensibilities. And the Cowboys say they are the best we got.
That's like saying, all you're gonna give him is a bunch of Bentleys?
And like I said, she most likely owed Skinny a ton of money...so if she is working for a reduced asking price, Skinny does indeed need to be compensated by Little Bill.
She should of course have been compensated to for loss of future earnings.
But the bounty by the whores is a crazy bounty - death.
And Bill rightfully responds angrily to it. He has outlawed guns in his town and thought he made it peaceful and now they just invited a swath of cuthroats to come in and do as they please.
And that's not remotely a death sentence.
And it's modern equivalent is aggravated battery.
Stealing a horse was a bigger crime than disfiguring someone.
If he had cut off both her legs and arms...that's still Mayhem.
He didn't do any of that and didn't come close to killing her or even attempting to kill her. You can't kill someone by cutting their face.
You saW the scars in the movie, right?
Hanging Offenses:
Murder
Cheating at cards
Horse Theft
Selling Guns to Indians
And only three of those were taken seriously.
Murder and property theft of the highest order and treason.
There's been a lot of talk about how everyone was hanged in the Old West but it was basically ONLY for these two offenses...
Murder (like today in some States)
And Horse theft...no car alarms back then so everyone had to trust everyone and a break in that trust (not only the value in property) death was considered a necessary deterrent. (and not many people were even hanged for that...it was on the books as a deterrent, not a regular punishment.)
I'm not defending what the Cowboys did...I'm defending Little Bill's response for the time in the movie. It's normal. He's only the villian to some because of our modern sensibilities.
And even at that, Clint in his directing doubles-down and lets the viewer know, the avengers are going WAY overboard...and...the AVENGERS are horrible people and lets see...if you still root for us now?
And we do. Clint tried to make it ambigious and people still rooted for Clint.
That was the point I was making...it didn't matter how awful Clint the director made Munney, we still cast Little Bill as the bad guy because we love Clint.
And Bill is just trying to protect his own and town from ruthless bounty hunters set on killing people in vigilant justice that doesn't meet the crime. They want to murder...
How is that remotely close? And that's Clint's point.
If the whores had laid a bounty to cut-up some Cowboys that would be different but then we wouldn't have this connundrum of morality and Clint would clearly be the good guy.
But here he is willing to murder some Cowboys over cutting a woman that is neither lethal or ever life-threatening...and the movie only talks about it in the sense, that Cowboys won't like her as much to do her...but Skinny says she can still work at a reduced rate.
When the movie says: "all you're gonna give him is a couple of ponies?" That's our modern sensibilities. And the Cowboys say they are the best we got.
That's like saying, all you're gonna give him is a bunch of Bentleys?
And like I said, she most likely owed Skinny a ton of money...so if she is working for a reduced asking price, Skinny does indeed need to be compensated by Little Bill.
She should of course have been compensated to for loss of future earnings.
But the bounty by the whores is a crazy bounty - death.
And Bill rightfully responds angrily to it. He has outlawed guns in his town and thought he made it peaceful and now they just invited a swath of cuthroats to come in and do as they please.
This post was edited on 11/18/18 at 1:37 am
Posted on 11/18/18 at 2:09 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
You wrote way too much without listening to what I said. I wasn't suggesting they'd be hanged. I was suggesting the whores saw it as a moral equivalency. The comment I replied to suggested that death was too severe a punishment and Bill was protecting them in a righteous fashion. But the prostitutes didn't see it like that, and given the time they lived in, they had a point. Cutting her up damaged her ability to continue in her profession, little different from rustling cattle, and they certainly considered it an injustice that the men weren't punished more severely and that the recompense wasn't just given to them. So they turned to taking out a bounty since Bill allowed them no other recourse.
It fit the times. There's a reason the phrase "frontier justice" exists. Suggesting Bill was simply trying to maintain order and justice and the women were making things harder than they need to be is disingenuous in context. Will, Ned, and the Kid all obviously agreed that there needed to be something more done once they heard the story. The dialogue makes it clear that even if the primary motive was money, they reassured themselves this was righteous money. Indeed, part of the theme of the movie was the fact that justice doesn't necessarily stem from law-and-order.
Edit: Incidentally, I noticed you left out the fact that Good Guy Bill tortured a man to death. No trial, nothing. And whether he intended to kill Ned or not is immaterial. Bill clearly inflicted enough damage to kill him. And then, showing no remorse whatsoever, he puts Ned's body out in public as a warning. So now the saloon front is decorated with the one man in that group who didn't commit murder. Wonderful guy, Little Bill. He'll fine a couple men for slicing up someone's face but he'll kill a man just for hanging around with people who got on his bad side.
It fit the times. There's a reason the phrase "frontier justice" exists. Suggesting Bill was simply trying to maintain order and justice and the women were making things harder than they need to be is disingenuous in context. Will, Ned, and the Kid all obviously agreed that there needed to be something more done once they heard the story. The dialogue makes it clear that even if the primary motive was money, they reassured themselves this was righteous money. Indeed, part of the theme of the movie was the fact that justice doesn't necessarily stem from law-and-order.
Edit: Incidentally, I noticed you left out the fact that Good Guy Bill tortured a man to death. No trial, nothing. And whether he intended to kill Ned or not is immaterial. Bill clearly inflicted enough damage to kill him. And then, showing no remorse whatsoever, he puts Ned's body out in public as a warning. So now the saloon front is decorated with the one man in that group who didn't commit murder. Wonderful guy, Little Bill. He'll fine a couple men for slicing up someone's face but he'll kill a man just for hanging around with people who got on his bad side.
This post was edited on 11/18/18 at 2:24 am
Posted on 11/18/18 at 6:59 am to athenslife101
Who’s the fella started this shite thread?
Posted on 11/18/18 at 7:50 am to athenslife101
quote:
I do have a hard time seeing it as revolutionary as people have claimed it to be.
It turns a lot of western tropes on their heads. You have the "good guys" - essentially bandits for hire, vigilantes or worse, taking on a town's law enforcement. The LE, while brutal, are generally within the law. The whores decide to take the law into their own hands.
It's the complex confusion and moral ambiguity around all the characters that make the film so compelling - it is an anti-western, in many ways (similar, although not as good IMHO as Eastwood's Josey Wales film) meant to serve as an epitaph on the genre.
The smarmy writer who wants to experience these thrills vicariously (as will his readers, and us the film viewers), but is wholly unprepared to actually function in this world. English Bob, past his prime and resting solely on his reputation is a stereotype of the classic western anti-hero.
Clint comes in as a brutal, no nonsense, get things done "thug" who was probably more typical of the dude that was successful in the old west. And in this case, he sick of it/disgusted by it all, as we are meant to be at the end.
It is a brilliant piece of art by one of the true giants of the genre (and probably the only western genre filmmaker with those credentials on both sides of the camera).
This post was edited on 11/18/18 at 7:51 am
Posted on 11/18/18 at 8:03 am to athenslife101
quote:
I was absolutely shocked that Clint Eastwood was nominated for acting for this.
This is a shite take. Are you fricking kidding?
Eastwood's character for the first 110 minutes of the film is a brilliant representation of a man struggling to keep his inner demons at bay, then his metamorphosis into his true self in the last 10-15 minutes is fricking masterful.
Rewatch it, Eastwood could not have done this better, nobody could have.
And Hackman is a fricking God.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 5:34 pm to athenslife101
I really liked this movie. I'm a big Clint Eastwood fan and that may cloud my judgement a bit. I thought his facial expressions and overall body language sold his character in this movie. Which I thought was well written.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 6:55 pm to MF Doom
quote:quote:you mean besides the part where he shoots the unarmed bartender
But all he did was walk in there unopposed and shoot the main bad guy. Nothing about him seemed brutal.
Is that after the part where he leaves Kansas to travel all the way to Wyoming to murder a couple of guys for money or is it before the part where he murders the sheriff and his deputies and then threatens to murder the entire town if they don't bury his hitman buddy?
This post was edited on 11/18/18 at 8:23 pm
Posted on 11/18/18 at 7:12 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
really was lying to himself with his wife and farm kids.
This is what I took from clints performance. He wanted to change. He tried to change. But he never really did. He lied to himself about it. You can hear it in his voice when he and Ned were on the trail one night.
Posted on 11/18/18 at 8:21 pm to Will Munny
Will munny my man! Busting up in this thread like the badass you are lol
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