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re: What separates Derek Jeter from Craig Biggio? Is it only rings?
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:25 am to The White Lobster
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:25 am to The White Lobster
quote:
they were both poor defenders for their positions
Biggio has a career .984 fielding percentage at 2nd base, that's not really poor defense. Not to mention he played 3 positions throughout his career.
1
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:28 am to NOTORlOUSD
quote:I disagree. Craig Biggio was much sexier and had a tighter arse.
Jeter had immense popularity due to playing in New York and being good-looking and well-spoken.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:29 am to Grit-Eating Shin
quote:
I've always thought that Jeter's backhanded throw to home in the playoffs (or was it the WS?) is one of the most over-rated plays in sports history. Yes, it was a good, clutch play, but athletically, any ML infielder could have done it. So you have a pretty good point that he gets an enormous bump because of who he played for.
But yet youve never seen ANYONE ever make the same play. Let alone make it in a 1 run playoff game.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:30 am to Lsuhoohoo
quote:
Location, Location, Location. Had Biggio played 20 years in New York, he would have had more rings, more all star appearances, more Gold Gloves and a stacked lineup around him his whole career. All of that would have gotten him the national media love that he didn't get in Houston
You dont sound biased at all.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:33 am to Moustache
Jeter played SS. That's much more premium position than 2b.
And then there's shroud of steroids over the Astros organization.
And then there's shroud of steroids over the Astros organization.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:35 am to Grit-Eating Shin
quote:
I've always thought that Jeter's backhanded throw to home in the playoffs (or was it the WS?) is one of the most over-rated plays in sports history.
I hate this shite. History depends so much on circumstances. It will always be that way. Are there more athletic plays that are less well known? Of course. That backhand flip came in 2001, a little over a month since the 9/11 attacks, when the Yankees were about to be pushed out of the playoffs by the As. That play sparked the team who came back and won that series at a time when the Yankees were serving as an inspiration to the city.
What kills me about the pure stats arguments for the HOF is that life, in general, does not work that way. Personality, special circumstances, likeability, and bias always, always play into circumstances. It will always be that way. Pure talent and/or credentials alone are not, and should not be, sole factors in measuring "greatness."
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:35 am to Moustache
quote:
2. Career BA for Jeter- .312
Career BA for Biggio- .281
Jeter gets a pretty solid edge here.
huge gap
quote:
4. both have over 3000 hits
huge gap
other points have already been made
Postseason, for instance
jeter 374/465/838
biggio 295/323/618
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:37 am to Moustache
quote:
and Biggio having to face better pitching in the NL has a lot to do with it.
link?
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:37 am to rutiger
According to similarity scores, Biggio is the closest player statistically to Jeter in the entire history of baseball (though they really aren't THAT similar, that's more a factor of Jeter being so unique as is Biggio).
During their peaks, roughly a 10 year stretch for each guy, Biggio hit 299/391/451 (129 OPS+) and Jeter hit 321/393/472 (126 OPS+). Jeter has the big edge in batting average, so Biggio had to make up the ground through all the little things. In fact, I don't think there's ever been a better "little things" player than Biggio. The HBP record is just sort of perfect.
Basically, Jeter is a classic ballplayer, good at all of the traditional skills, while Biggio is the posterchild for Baseball Prospectus.
During their peaks, roughly a 10 year stretch for each guy, Biggio hit 299/391/451 (129 OPS+) and Jeter hit 321/393/472 (126 OPS+). Jeter has the big edge in batting average, so Biggio had to make up the ground through all the little things. In fact, I don't think there's ever been a better "little things" player than Biggio. The HBP record is just sort of perfect.
Basically, Jeter is a classic ballplayer, good at all of the traditional skills, while Biggio is the posterchild for Baseball Prospectus.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:38 am to Grit-Eating Shin
Biggio wasn't even the best 2B in the NL in the 1990s. He was far and away behind Sandberg and Kent.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:40 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:Like I said, it was a good, clutch play, but still vastly over-rated from an athletic standpoint.
I hate this shite. History depends so much on circumstances. It will always be that way. Are there more athletic plays that are less well known? Of course. That backhand flip came in 2001, a little over a month since the 9/11 attacks, when the Yankees were about to be pushed out of the playoffs by the As.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:42 am to Tornado Alley
biggio was better than sandberg and kent
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:43 am to rlebl39
quote:
Biggio has a career .984 fielding percentage at 2nd base, that's not really poor defense. Not to mention he played 3 positions throughout his career.
please don't cite fielding percentage
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:43 am to Baloo
quote:
According to similarity scores, Biggio is the closest player statistically to Jeter in the entire history of baseball (though they really aren't THAT similar, that's more a factor of Jeter being so unique as is Biggio).
During their peaks, roughly a 10 year stretch for each guy, Biggio hit 299/391/451 (129 OPS+) and Jeter hit 321/393/472 (126 OPS+). Jeter has the big edge in batting average, so Biggio had to make up the ground through all the little things. In fact, I don't think there's ever been a better "little things" player than Biggio. The HBP record is just sort of perfect.
Basically, Jeter is a classic ballplayer, good at all of the traditional skills, while Biggio is the posterchild for Baseball Prospectus.
Great points all around.
I'm admitting Jeter had an edge at being a better hitter than Biggio. However, there's already chatter of Jeter being unanimous and 1st ballot, while Craig is still struggling to get in. My point is, there's no way Jeter is that much better than Biggio to be a 1st ballot guy while Biggio needs 3+ ballots to get in.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:44 am to Grit-Eating Shin
quote:
I hate this shite. History depends so much on circumstances. It will always be that way. Are there more athletic plays that are less well known? Of course. That backhand flip came in 2001, a little over a month since the 9/11 attacks, when the Yankees were about to be pushed out of the playoffs by the As.
Like I said, it was a good, clutch play, but still vastly over-rated from an athletic
ill ask you again, please name another time youve seen ANYONE make that play.
and ive never heard anyone claim it was some incredible athletic feat, it was more cerebrial that he saw the play as it developed and saved the day.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:48 am to Baloo
the year he was hit by 34 pitches without grounding into a double play is still amazing to me
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:48 am to Grit-Eating Shin
You said overrated in history. I'd say, considering the circumstances, I'm surprised you don't hear about it more.
The way you're viewing it, you probably think gibson's WS home run is overrated because there have been harder hit balls or mookie's dribbler down the first baseline in game 6 of the 1986 WS should not be talked about because, let's face it it was not a good hit, at all.
Edited to get rid of damn autocorrect.
The way you're viewing it, you probably think gibson's WS home run is overrated because there have been harder hit balls or mookie's dribbler down the first baseline in game 6 of the 1986 WS should not be talked about because, let's face it it was not a good hit, at all.
Edited to get rid of damn autocorrect.
This post was edited on 2/13/14 at 11:50 am
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:51 am to Moustache
quote:
Craig played most of his career in the Astrodome during his prime.
This is not a legit argument FOR Biggio. When the Astros moved to MMP, Biggio was put into an RBI producing role instead of table-setter role. He was encouraged to try to pull balls into the Crawford Boxes because Purpura and Maclane wanted him to fill the Derek Bell role in the lineup which Biggio was clearly not a Derek Bell type player. In the Astrodome, he hit to all fields. At MMP, especially the last 5 years of his career, he was a dead-pull hitter -- this caused him to change his swing which caused him very susceptible to outside breaking pitches.
I do believe Jeter had a greater career both statistically and "eye test". However, I also believe Biggio had a career worth of first ballot Hall of Fame.
Now, if we have the discussion, "Who pulled the best tail?"... Jeter. Definitely Jeter.
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:51 am to Grit-Eating Shin
quote:
Like I said, it was a good, clutch play, but still vastly over-rated from an athletic standpoint.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's talked about for being athletic as much as being a smart play....jeter had to be positioned in the correct spot, read the trajectory of Shane spencer's throw, get to the ball and deliver it in a way to get it to posada in time. I always thought the baseball IQ on that play was greater than the athleticism of it
ETA: rutiger covered my thoughts
This post was edited on 2/13/14 at 11:52 am
Posted on 2/13/14 at 11:51 am to rutiger
quote:That's a pretty loaded question simply due to circumstance and opportunity. It's very rare that the SS even finds himself on that side if home plate. But infielders backhand throws all the time in the league. Again, a good, clutch play, just not nearly as great as it's made out to be.
ill ask you again, please name another time youve seen ANYONE make that play.
But if we're going for rarity and stakes, then I think Knoblauch's fake-out of the runner in game 7 of the '91 WS should get an equal amount of attention. It literally saved the series for the Twins.
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