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Posted on 5/23/13 at 9:34 pm to Cosmo
Nothing to do with his Duncan > Shaq idea, but Simmons is the biggest fair weather guy on TV. He always calls players over the hill once they have a few bad games (Wade after like 20 games this year), but hops right back on that bandwagon after a few games.
Also, he's the quickest to pick out who's going to bust out of the league. He used to kill Mike Conley until he started slurping him up recently. Pretty certain he did the same thing w/ Paul George. In Harden's 2nd year, he suggested OKC was crazy for picking him and that they should try and salvage value from the pick. Now, he acts like it's inconceivable that they traded him.
Also, he's the quickest to pick out who's going to bust out of the league. He used to kill Mike Conley until he started slurping him up recently. Pretty certain he did the same thing w/ Paul George. In Harden's 2nd year, he suggested OKC was crazy for picking him and that they should try and salvage value from the pick. Now, he acts like it's inconceivable that they traded him.
Posted on 5/23/13 at 9:54 pm to PKTiger
Great debate/dialogue.
Ill take Prime Rik Smits over both
Ill take Prime Rik Smits over both
Posted on 5/23/13 at 9:57 pm to RonBurgundy
Surprised by this thread. IMO, I don't think there is much of an argument that Shaq has had a better career than Duncan. Duncan was the best player on four title teams and he never played with anyone as good as Kobe or DWade. Duncan is incredibly underrated (evidently more so than I thought judging by this thread). He has to be one of the most consistently great players in NBA history and I can't think of a better PF in NBA history.
The only way I can see an argument for Shaq is if you twist the argument to be "at his peak," like so many people did in this thread. At his absolute peak, Shaq was probably better, The problem is that his peak was relatively short lived (he was a very good player for a long time, but he was not "peak" in many of these years). Duncan's peak lasted a long time; he is still a very good player right now (check out his Per 36 minute averages and compare them with the rest of his career, unreal). With the peak argument, I completely agree with this:
What Shaq could have or should have done has no bearing on what he did. There are a million things all of us should do and they don't mean shite unless we do them. Duncan maximized his potential.
The only way I can see an argument for Shaq is if you twist the argument to be "at his peak," like so many people did in this thread. At his absolute peak, Shaq was probably better, The problem is that his peak was relatively short lived (he was a very good player for a long time, but he was not "peak" in many of these years). Duncan's peak lasted a long time; he is still a very good player right now (check out his Per 36 minute averages and compare them with the rest of his career, unreal). With the peak argument, I completely agree with this:
quote:
that's part of the argument though. For every Shaq fan there is always the apology of "if he did this.." Well Duncan did do it, and should recognized for it.
What Shaq could have or should have done has no bearing on what he did. There are a million things all of us should do and they don't mean shite unless we do them. Duncan maximized his potential.
Posted on 5/23/13 at 10:30 pm to emmanuellewis
quote:
The only way I can see an argument for Shaq is if you twist the argument to be "at his peak," like so many people did in this thread. At his absolute peak, Shaq was probably better, The problem is that his peak was relatively short lived (he was a very good player for a long time, but he was not "peak" in many of these years). Duncan's peak lasted a long time; he is still a very good player right now (check out his Per 36 minute averages and compare them with the rest of his career, unreal). With the peak argument, I completely agree with this:
I think the bolded part is ridiculously wrong. Shaq was definitely better at his peak and his peak lasted much longer than you seem to give him credit for.. if it did not then Shaq's career numbers obviously wouldn't look to be generally superior since career stats are about longevity and most people generally acknowledge Shaq had an inferior ending to his career compared to the first half of his career.
Duncan is a great player who had not only a great college career but also a HOF and All time great NBA career... but he was not as good at his peak, and his career is not yet as long as Shaq's was.
Let's back up my claim with numbers:
Shaq career statistics: regular season (playoffs)
Number of Seasons: 19 (17)
Average PER: 26.7 (26.1)
FG%: .582 (.563)
PPG: 23.7 (24.3)
TRB/G: 10.9 (11.6)
Assists/G: 2.5 (2.7)
Blocks/G: 2.3 (2.1)
Steals/G: 0.6 (0.5)
shaq
Duncan's Career Statistics: regular season (playoffs)
Number of Seasons: 16 (15)
Average PER: 24.7 (25.0)
FG%: .507 (.499)
PPG: 20.2 (22)
TRB/G: 11.2 (12.0)
Assists/G: 3.1 (3.3)
Blocks/G: 2.2 (2.5)
Steals/G: 0.7 (0.7)
duncan
From those links you can also consider how long each player's peak was and compare the down years. Let's do that for both since there seems to be disagreement and there are some defined metrics used for this comparison:
Shaq's best 12 seasons by PER:
1) 30.6 - 1998-1999
2) 30.6 - 1999-2000
3) 30.2 - 2000-2001
4) 29.7 - 2001-2002
5) 29.5 - 2002-2003
6) 28.6 - 1994-1995
7) 28.5 - 1993-1994
8) 27.1 - 1996-1997
9) 27.0 - 2004-2005
10) 26.4 - 1995-1996
11) 24.4 - 2003-2004
12) 24.4 - 2005-2006
Duncan's best 12 seasons by PER:
1) 27.1 - 2003-2004
2) 27.0 - 2001-2002
3) 27.0 - 2004-2005
4) 26.9 - 2002-2003
5) 26.1 - 2006-2007
6) 24.8 - 1999-2000
7) 24.7 - 2009-2010
8) 24.4 - 2007-2008
9) 24.4 - 2008-2009
10) 24.4 - 2012-2013
11) 23.8 - 2000-2001
12) 23.2 - 1998-1999
Posted on 5/23/13 at 10:57 pm to molsusports
/thread
Posted on 5/23/13 at 10:58 pm to molsusports
But Duncan is a better free throw shooter!!
Posted on 5/23/13 at 11:01 pm to molsusports
Posted on 5/23/13 at 11:01 pm to fightingtigers98
quote:
bill simmons is awesome
For about a year until you realize he recycles material/jokes like no other and he really doesnt know that much about anything outside of basketball
Posted on 5/23/13 at 11:45 pm to LordoftheManor
Nevermind. Just read molsusports's previous post and the numbers don't lie.
good stuff
good stuff
This post was edited on 5/23/13 at 11:49 pm
Posted on 5/23/13 at 11:47 pm to wildtigercat93
quote:
For about a year until you realize he recycles material/jokes like no other and he really doesnt know that much about anything outside of basketball
Well that's just silly
Posted on 5/24/13 at 12:29 am to Cosmo
Most dominating player in NBA?
EVER?
Besides Shaq?
EVER?
Besides Shaq?
Posted on 5/24/13 at 12:59 am to Preys on Gumps
quote:
Pippen didn't do well early against the Microwave & Dumars.
He's a great compliment, but hard for me to believe he's top 50 all time.
You mean in his first three seasons out of a small school when he "didn't do well" as a SF when you are talking about two-guards? By the way, when he turned 25, Pippen became one of the best in the game.
This post was edited on 5/24/13 at 1:04 am
Posted on 5/24/13 at 1:29 am to molsusports
Duncan and Garnett is a much more reasonable argument than Shaq and Duncan.
Posted on 5/24/13 at 8:54 am to fightingtigers98
quote:
Shaq
Duncan
Miller
Jordan
Stockton
= dynasty
Posted on 5/24/13 at 9:06 am to Preys on Gumps
quote:No. He's probably the best defender to ever play in the NBA.
Pippen is soooo overrated.
Scottie Pippen:Ultimate Defender
This post was edited on 5/24/13 at 9:12 am
Posted on 5/24/13 at 9:18 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
I would still take Duncan due to his size and superior defense.
You realize that was talking about Duncan vs Barkley, right?
Posted on 5/24/13 at 9:21 am to Cosmo
Duncan's career Per 36 stats are insane. Its almost as if someone cut and paste each season into the next.
I dont think there has ever been a more consistent basketball player.
But regarding this topic:
Shaq through age 32 > Duncan through age 32
Duncan after age 32 > Shaq after age 32
I dont think there has ever been a more consistent basketball player.
But regarding this topic:
Shaq through age 32 > Duncan through age 32
Duncan after age 32 > Shaq after age 32
Posted on 5/24/13 at 9:29 am to tgr4ever
Good discussion. Duncan's constancy stands out to me and his improved FT shooting over the past few years doesn't make him a liability like Shaq. Shaq missed 4500 more FT and only made 600 more. I'd probably still draft Shaq over Duncan if given the choice.
Posted on 5/24/13 at 9:32 am to SPEEDY
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