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re: MMA - Does the amount of talent between 145-170 demand another division?

Posted on 4/23/18 at 10:48 pm to
Posted by starsandstripes
Georgia
Member since Nov 2017
11897 posts
Posted on 4/23/18 at 10:48 pm to
quote:

I'm just curious, how many adult males do you know that weigh under 170lbs? I know maybe a handful and they are all under 5'6. Why are over half the belts dedicated to 5-10% of the population? The average adult male weighs like 190. There shouldn't be 9 classes under that weight and only 2 above. That makes no sense..




As mentioned above, these guys are cutting down to make weight. Not uncommon for them to walk around 30lbs heavier than their weight class.

Most of these athletes have around 1kg of glycogen stored when they are replete. Generally, for every 1g of glycogen, 4g of water follows. So that's 5kg or 11lbs.

Hormones are very potent regulators of body water. So, many fighters will drink a ton of water each day leading up to a fight. That way, the hormonal profile is predisposed to having the kidneys excrete liberally by default. They will also insure a good salt intake, to help retain more water and keep aldosterone low. This will give them around 8 liters of water to potentially squeeze out, which is about 17.6lbs.

Every fighter has a preference on how to do the cut and some strategies differ in the timing of things, but in theory a fighter can go into fight week needing to shed 25lbs, perhaps 30lbs. This is done by staying hydrated and full of salt early on, while working out a lot and cutting the diet down, especially carbs. After a couple days they can be hydrated but glycogen depleted and they will steadily see body weight go down by 10lbs or so. Then they keep the activity level up and water intake up but cut the salt and that will flush a few more pounds out through the kidneys. Then the water stops but because it takes a day or two for the hormones to adjust the urination continues pretty normally and another few pounds come off. Finally, ideally, the body's adjustment is well timed with some measures to force out the last bit of fluid with hot baths or a sauna or something along those lines.

Eddie Alvarez fights at 155 but walks around as high as 190. He will shed about 15lbs, mostly fat and some muscle through his training camp. Come fight week may be around 175 or so. When he is ready for a fight he has very low body fat, so a ton of his weight is muscle, which will hold more water than fat. For him, he just has to flush that water like crazy during the last week.

After the cut they can put back around 85% of all that weight within the next 24-36hrs, prior to th fight.

Posted by Korin
Member since Jan 2014
37935 posts
Posted on 4/23/18 at 10:50 pm to
Remember when Rumble used to fight at 170?
Posted by lsurapper2
River
Member since Apr 2018
25 posts
Posted on 4/23/18 at 10:54 pm to
Instead of doing that, I wish that they forced guys to fight in their true weight class. UFC won’t be happy until someone dies cutting weight.
Posted by Korin
Member since Jan 2014
37935 posts
Posted on 4/23/18 at 10:56 pm to
And how would you go about enforcing that?
Posted by brmark70816
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
9862 posts
Posted on 4/23/18 at 11:13 pm to
quote:

That 210 guy wouldn't be fighting at Hw though.


Why wouldn't he? The min. weight is 205. Unless you think he would just cut enough to get to LHW then. Is that what you mean?

My point to all this is that there are 7 weight classes dedicated to guys that weigh under 185 lbs and 2 for guys that weigh over that weight. How is that balanced? To say that athletes that normally weigh 180lbs should fight in the 150lb range is insane. Why would guys do that to their bodies? It's irresponsible and incredibly dangerous.
Posted by Korin
Member since Jan 2014
37935 posts
Posted on 4/23/18 at 11:52 pm to
Yes, I'm sure he's not gonna cut 4-5 measly lbs and fight at HW instead.
Posted by starsandstripes
Georgia
Member since Nov 2017
11897 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 1:19 am to
quote:

Why wouldn't he? The min. weight is 205. Unless you think he would just cut enough to get to LHW then. Is that what you mean?



yes, that's what happens

quote:

My point to all this is that there are 7 weight classes dedicated to guys that weigh under 185 lbs and 2 for guys that weigh over that weight. How is that balanced?


I'd say it's pretty well balanced when you consider the distribution of those that can do this sort of thing.

quote:

To say that athletes that normally weigh 180lbs should fight in the 150lb range is insane. Why would guys do that to their bodies?


Because, they will inevitably face someone that does, and that person will have a tremendous advantage. For professional fighters with a ton of skill - If you're normal weight is 170, it wouldn't be fair for you to fight someone that is normally 195. If you weigh in at 170 and that person spends a few days to get down to 170, you will step in the cage being outweighed by 20lbs or so. This leads to the inevitable outcome where everyone decides to maximize their fighting size in the cage and minimize their size on the scale.

quote:

Why would guys do that to their bodies?


To win.

quote:

It's irresponsible


perhaps, but how many of us take chances to maximize our performance / earning potential? pretty common in my opinion.

quote:

incredibly dangerous.


It can be, but for guys that are getting in a cage and fighting, I would say it's relative.
Posted by VerlanderBEAST
Member since Dec 2011
18989 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 4:05 am to
quote:

And how would you go about enforcing that?


You have multiple weigh ins.

60 days you have to be at least 10lbs in range
30 days 5lbs in range
10 days 3lbs in range
5 days on weight
3 days on weight
Day before on weight

You're allowed to fail once

Once this is in place there will be no faking and you would regularly see guys weight in 3 or 4lbs under. You would also need to add 3 more weight classes

125 flyweight
135 bantamweight
145 featherweight
155 lightweight
165 welterweight
175 super welterweight
185 middleweight
200 super middleweight
225 light heavyweight
Unlimited heavyweight
Posted by diat150
Louisiana
Member since Jun 2005
43810 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 5:12 am to
quote:

Why wouldn't he? The min. weight is 205. Unless you think he would just cut enough to get to LHW then. Is that what you mean?

My point to all this is that there are 7 weight classes dedicated to guys that weigh under 185 lbs and 2 for guys that weigh over that weight. How is that balanced? To say that athletes that normally weigh 180lbs should fight in the 150lb range is insane. Why would guys do that to their bodies? It's irresponsible and incredibly dangerous.



A guy that weighs 210 will cut down to 185 or 170.


Also, the lhw and hw divisions are 2 of the weaker divisions in the UFC at this point. The talent is most concentrated between 135 and 170
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
425567 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 7:32 am to
quote:

And how would you go about enforcing that?

weigh ins 4 hours before the fight
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
425567 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 7:33 am to
quote:

Yes, I'm sure he's not gonna cut 4-5 measly lbs and fight at HW instead.

that was cro cop's MO for years in Pride
Posted by KingwoodLsuFan
Member since Aug 2008
11447 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 8:48 am to
I think jon jones walked around at 230-235ish.
Posted by reggo75
Iowa, LA
Member since Jan 2016
1433 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:23 am to
I would like to see them weigh before the fight... no weight cutting allowed. Just fight at your natural weight.

If you miss weight by less than 3 lbs you give up a portion of your purse to your opponent and the fight goes on. If you miss weight by more than 3 lbs you get a LOSS on your record for failing to make weight.

FORCE them to fight at their normal weight... fighting should have nothing to do with the ability to cut weight.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
425567 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 9:24 am to
yeah i think with all of the CTE concerns weight cutting becomes a major target
Posted by Keep Stirring
Member since Sep 2016
2607 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 10:55 am to
CTE & cutting weight are two completely different things dog.
Posted by Korin
Member since Jan 2014
37935 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 3:11 pm to
quote:

that was cro cop's MO for years in Pride

He was 225 in Pride.
Posted by starsandstripes
Georgia
Member since Nov 2017
11897 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 3:52 pm to
quote:

Remember when Rumble used to fight at 170?


Yeah, that's just strange to even think about that. His cut was really extreme but I don't remember what the weights were, or if he ever said where he started his cut from. The guy fought Arlovski at HW IIRC.
Posted by VerlanderBEAST
Member since Dec 2011
18989 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 4:05 pm to
Imagine how good Rumble could of been had he actually been developing all those years instead of killing himself to make weight
This post was edited on 4/24/18 at 4:06 pm
Posted by Korin
Member since Jan 2014
37935 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 4:21 pm to
He still would've hit his ceiling with Cormier and Jones around.
Posted by Hester Carries
Member since Sep 2012
22542 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 4:48 pm to
quote:

I think at some point you dilute the meaning of being a champ if you add in too many weight classes.


Id rather guys fight at their best weight class than where a shiny belt.
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