re: Horace Grant says Michael Jordan lied constantly in 'Last Dance', calls him a 'snitch'

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Point being - these guy's adjust and hire people to make sure they don't look bad.

I expect Jordan would have adjusted the same way.

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I don't think he ever adjusted. He just was eventually so dominant that the criticism was kept to a minimum.

But this guy actually said that SI should've consulted him before writing an article about how he was embarrassing baseball. That's the current version of Jordan that said that in the documentary. That doesn't sound like someone that's learned to take criticism in stride.

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It's hard to say Grant's wrong about any of this.

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true but didn't a few other guys point to horace in the last dance as the one who leaked info?

Yeah that's pretty tryhard but I don't think that makes him a bad father.

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true but didn't a few other guys point to horace in the last dance as the one who leaked info?

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Sorry, I accidently downvoted you.

I remember Jordan's snitch allegation and other players saying Horace didn't like the fact MJ and Scottie got all the attention. I don't remember anyone else saying Horace was the source, but might have forgotten if someone did.

I always thought Krause leaked a ton for the book. The book does a lot to show the players in less than flattering lights, which I'm sure Krause would be happy to do.

I never understood the focus on one guy, though. The book obviously has info from a lot of perspectives.

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But it is still pretty petty to get that upset about an article, and honestly, the article wasn't without merit. 

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If I remember the article right, it was an op-ed and SI's criticism is that MJ was taking the spot of some other player due to his celebrity.

The article then talked about how that other player, this is that other guy's livelihood. It's a legit point that MJ probably took the spot of a more deserving guy. Reinsdorf even said they sent him to AA ball because single A didn't have sufficient media facilities.

It wasn't an unfair article or hit piece at all.

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Both Smith and Grant say Grant wasn't a source. Unless you believe MJ over the book's writer and Grant...that part isn't wrong.

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Wait did you expect smith to come out and say grant was a source? Cmon bro

It’s basically he said/ he said. You only believe grant cuz you want to believe grant.


Probably stemming from your weird MJ hate boner

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Wait did you expect smith to come out and say grant was a source? 

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Smith actually said the opposite, that Grant wasn't a source. It's a long quote, but he goes into detail about how he wrote the book.

"Because you and Horace were close, was it tough watching him get blamed for the leaked info?

SS: Yeah, ’cause it wasn’t true. That’s the other thing too. Like I said, I’d been an investigative reporter for a long time and one of the tenants of that kind of work is it doesn’t matter if one person tells you something, you got to check it out. Somebody else has to confirm it, right? There’s nothing I wrote that I didn’t hear from at least two different sources, two different people. And the other thing is I was with the team a long time, traveling in the era when we all traveled together. I sat on the plane for virtually every flight with either Tex Winteror Johnny Bach or Phil Jackson because they sat in coach –  not because they were coaches, but because that’s what they called it. (laughs) There were 12 first-class seats on all of the flights because the NBA rule back then was that you had to fly on a plane with 12 first-class seats so every roster player could have a first-class seat. The coaches didn’t. All of the coaches were in the back, so I would put sit with them. We went to and from games, we went to the arena together, we went to the airport together.

I got to know Phil in the early ’80s when I did a magazine feature on the CBA and we went to Albany. I met him there and got to know him and kept in touch with him over the years. When I was writing NBA features, I would call him and ask him about stuff that was going on, what he remembered and people he knew, so I developed a long-term relationship with Phil. Johnny Bach, being from Brooklyn (where I’m from), I got to know him years ago in the NBA and kept a relationship with him. When [Bill] Cartwright came to the team, he was the oldest player on a young team, so he didn’t hang out with the players and he’d spend more time with me on the road and we’d have dinner a lot. Similarly, Charles Davis wasn’t as old as Bill, but he was with the team right before the championship runs. Scottie is someone I was very close with – we were going to collaborate on a book in the mid ’90s, which he sort of backed out of because he didn’t want to do it at the time. So, while I was friendly with Horace… it’s unfair. I don’t expect [people to know], it’s my profession. When I’m talking to a doctor or whoever, I don’t know what they do, and people don’t know journalism and what we do. With the nature of what we do in journalism, like I said, not only are there multiple sources, but the most famous thing in journalism is, like, Deep Throat – you know, “All The President’s Men” and [Bob] Woodward and [Carl] Bernstein. So, people think if you do anything, you got to have somebody who tells you. Well, no, it doesn’t work that way. First of all, that was a highly dramatized situation and it was about Washington, where people don’t want to tell you stuff. In sports, everybody wants to tell you stuff! And that’s what I loved about the NBA when I got on the beat. I wanted to do the NBA beat because it’s always been the best people in sports – you know, because football is all militaristic and closed, and nobody talks to you in baseball (it was a lot of guys who lived in and played their way up through some small towns). In basketball, they’re playing before 20,000 people when they’re 16 years old! They’re in big arenas and recruited by colleges and they are very sophisticated and very worldly – much more so than any of the athletes in any team sports. They’re just comfortable and accustomed to dealing with it. They’re open, so there’s no such thing as a “Deep Throat” in sports because everybody talks to you – the owners talk to you, the coaches talk to you, the players talk to you. Everybody talks to you in sports, everybody wants to get their story out."

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Probably stemming from your weird MJ hate boner

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Only on this board, where I've repeatedly called him the presumptive GOAT, is that a hate boner.

The "snitch" thing is weird. People are acting like Jordan turned in a list of names to the DEA or something.

He basically said his teammates were big partiers - I thought nothing of it. I assumed everybody already knew what 1980s NBA was about

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Grant said it "is a downright, outright, completely lie" that he leaked much of the information in Sam Smith's famous "The Jordan Rules" book, as Jordan alleged during the documentary.

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Ok, well he said one thing and you’re saying another. Sam Smith needs to be the one to say if Horace leaked or not.

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And my point is, he said that I was the snitch, but yet and still after 35 years he brings up his rookie year going into one of his teammate's rooms and seeing coke, and weed and women. My point is: Why the hell did he want to bring that up? What's that got to do with anything? I mean, if you want to call somebody a snitch, that's a damn snitch right there."

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Did he name names? I thought it was a pretty well known fact that the Bulls organization was known for doing shite like that. I wouldn’t necessarily call him a snitch for that. He was just speaking to the situation he was drafted into.

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"I would say [it was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90 percent of it -- I don't know if I can say it on air, but B.S. in terms of the realness of it," Grant said. "It wasn't real -- because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary."

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Did Grant see the unedited version of this documentary? How would he know what was edited out with everybody else?

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"I have never seen a quote unquote number two guy, as decorated as Scottie Pippen, portrayed so badly," Grant said when asked whether he thought Pippen was portrayed fairly in the documentary. "In terms of the migraine, in terms of the 1.[8] seconds, [Jordan calling him] selfish. I have never seen this in all of my life. And the respect of, Pip was out there in Game 6 [of the '98 Finals], could barely walk, getting knocked down on his back. Tried to do whatever he could to help that team. My point is, why was that 1.[8] seconds in the documentary, so-called documentary, about Pip?

"MJ wasn't even on the team. Why was that in there? We handled that, that year really well as a team. Pip knows that he was wrong for doing it, but yet and still we went after the game. Bill Cartwright stood up and said what he had to say, and then we handled it, it was over. It was over. We go on to take the Knicks to seven games. It was over. Why bring that up? That's my question to everybody out there who's listening."

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Was anything that Jordan said about Pippen a lie?

This dude seems to be pretty upset and defending extra hard for somebody that supposedly knows the truth of the matter.

In fact, I bet he did leak some stuff to Sam Smith regarding the book and is upset that Mike found out about it and burned his arse.

MJ still the GOAT.

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I'm not so sure. Just think about the things Lebron, Kobe, and other greats have had to endure in the media, and Jordan wanted to retire with a fraction of that going on with him in the 90s.

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Did you see the madness he was around in public 24/7? The dude was a prisoner in his own house/hotel room. The shite he had to put up with was worse than anything any of those guys had to deal with by a long shot.