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Message
re: Did Michael Jordan insult Cowherd's momma?
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:20 am to shel311
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:20 am to shel311
quote:Since I haven't ranked them, why are you so sure?
but I'm sure you have him ahead of Chris Paul ro Steve Nash?
quote:I have Jordan ahead of Lebron because he had an unmatched will and competitiveness that Lebron seems to lack. His 6 titles in those two 3 peats, since Jake wanted stats, are one of the statistical measures of that. Although not directly, because such a thing isn't easily quantifiable. I know you and Jake eschew the non-quantifiable/intangibles, but I disagree.
Ahead of Lebron, but certainly not because of titles.
You are trying to make my argument that titles = better and that wasn't the point I was making at all.
eta: Just to re-emphasize for those that are off track, no one has claimed titles as a primary or sole statistics for differentiation between all players.
This post was edited on 2/18/13 at 11:24 am
1
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:20 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
what about the massive improvements in his game over the years makes you think he lacks the drive?
How come his FG% has increased yet not his FT%?
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:23 am to shel311
quote:Again, you have completely missed the point of my comment and are trying to argue against something I never argued. However, Bill Russell would be in the conversation.
Do you have Jordan as the greatest?
And if so, why not Bill Russell? He lifted his teams to 11 titles.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:23 am to WDE24
quote:Touche, so...where would you rank him?
Since I haven't ranked them, why are you so sure?
quote:I've never met either one and even if I did, there is really no way to measure that, so I would never use something like that as a barometer.
I have Jordan ahead of Lebron because he had an unmatched will and competitiveness that Lebron lacks
quote:
You are trying to make my argument that titles = better and that wasn't the point I was making at all.
But you are using titles as a barometer for the will and drive and showing that is the proof.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:25 am to WDE24
quote:Again, the problem with your point is you talk about MJ's will and determination and say 6 titles vs 1 makes Lebron more determined.
Again, you have completely missed the point of my comment and are trying to argue against something I never argued. However, Bill Russell would be in the conversation
So, if Russell has 11 to MJ's 6, then why isn't that relevant to point out Russell's will and determination being even more than MJ's?
I don't follow the logic at all.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:25 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
that is one reason i hate the concept, as well as what it says about barkley/malone
or hell KG, who finally got on a team worthy of a title towards the end of his career, past his prime, and he wins a title
that doesn't invalidate or change anything about how great he was prior to that year
Agreed. Using titles to compare greats is fine, as long as it's just a piece of the puzzle and doesn't define everything. Barkley, Malone, shite..Dan Marino, etc...you can knock them for never leading their teams to a title, but it doesn't mean they weren't some of the greatest to play their positions/sports.
(and I'm not saying anyone in here is saying otherwise)
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:26 am to Chad504boy
quote:
How come his FG% has increased yet not his FT%?
i think this year is actually a great representation of that. lebron isn't going to turn it up until the finals
he shot over 80% in the finals, for example
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:28 am to shel311
quote:It is evidence. I would agree that Bill Russell had it. The difference in the game of basketball in Russell's era and Jordan's era makes it almost impossible to compare.
But you are using titles as a barometer for the will and drive and showing that is the proof.
The difference between the Jordan era and Lebron era is significant in some ways, but not nearly as great.
quote:I know you wouldn't. I have seen your argument on it. I disagree with your analysis that immeasurable can't be recognized or don't exist.
I've never met either one and even if I did, there is really no way to measure that, so I would never use something like that as a barometer.
I believe people have souls and personalities. I can differentiate between them (the personalities, not really the souls) without a statistical analysis. I can also see the effect on others through things like wins and titles or corporate bottom lines.
This post was edited on 2/18/13 at 11:31 am
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:28 am to CocomoLSU
I wanna know when LBJ shot 53%, scored over 32ppg, 8 rebounds along with 8 asists as well as 2.9 steals.... all at the age of 25.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:29 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i think this year is actually a great representation of that. lebron isn't going to turn it up until the finals
he shot over 80% in the finals, for example
So lebron has a built in mechanism that isn't fully turned on during the regular season and he chooses to try harder during finals?
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:30 am to Chad504boy
quote:
I wanna know when LBJ shot 53%, scored over 32ppg, 8 rebounds along with 8 asists as well as 2.9 steals.... all at the age of 25.
lebron at 25:
29.7 ppg
7.3 rpg
8.6 apg
50.3% FG
in a much slower era with a lot tougher defense
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:30 am to shel311
quote:
Again, the problem with your point is you talk about MJ's will and determination and say 6 titles vs 1 makes Lebron more determined.
So, if Russell has 11 to MJ's 6, then why isn't that relevant to point out Russell's will and determination being even more than MJ's?
I don't follow the logic at all.
MJ's 6 titles are evidence. Obviously will and determination isn't measured by 1 to 1 title wins in different eras. you seem to be making me spell out what you are smart enough to know.
quote:I explained it above, however, by accounts, Russell had the similar will and drive as MJ. I didn't witness Russell's playing years so I can't really speak to it.
if Russell has 11 to MJ's 6, then why isn't that relevant to point out Russell's will and determination being even more than MJ's?
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:31 am to WDE24
quote:
I can differentiate between them without a statistical analysis. I can also see the effect on others through things like wins and titles
I certainly have absolutely no idea how you can do that without having spent a minute with any of these guys.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:31 am to Chad504boy
quote:
I wanna know when LBJ shot 53%, scored over 32ppg, 8 rebounds along with 8 asists as well as 2.9 steals.... all at the age of 25.
Think about James scoring 27 ppg in his second year in the League.
Do you know how old he was then?
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:31 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
in a much slower era with a lot tougher defense
Don't talk about era's please. Today's era, you get a foul called if someone sneezes on you on way to hole.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:31 am to Chad504boy
quote:
I wanna know when LBJ shot 53%, scored over 32ppg, 8 rebounds along with 8 asists as well as 2.9 steals.... all at the age of 25
I wanna know when MJ averaged 27/8/7 on 56% shooting in any of his seasons ever.
See how dumb that is?
Or when MJ averaged 31/7/7 at 21 years old, when was that?
This post was edited on 2/18/13 at 11:33 am
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:31 am to Chad504boy
quote:
So lebron has a built in mechanism that isn't fully turned on during the regular season and he chooses to try harder during finals?
it's called using your energy efficiently. it's being smart and efficient
why give 100% now when you'll need it later?
and if you want to point fingers at anybody for this line of thinking, it started with tim duncan and the spurs
the game is a lot more advanced than it was in jordan's day (especially during the 80s). teams look for efficiencies through statistical analysis and smart play and not gut feeling (Which is ironic considering this conversation in this thread)
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:32 am to shel311
quote:Observation. I have watched them in competition and in other interactions. You actually do know and you do it as well. It just doesn't fit your argument to acknowledge it.
I certainly have absolutely no idea how you can do that without having spent a minute with any of these guys.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:33 am to Chad504boy
quote:
Don't talk about era's please.
the 80s were a lot faster (about 10% more possessions per game) and they played less defense
it was a fast break league that inflated stats
jordan's stats during the early 90s are much more comparable b/c defense was actually played post bad boys (and then it got WAY too defensive)
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:33 am to WDE24
quote:
You actually do know and you do it as well. It just doesn't fit your argument to acknowledge it.
i look at performance and the evolution of their games, which is quantifiable in stats and objective measurements
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