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Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:08 am to WDE24
quote:
Really? Doing it 6 times in essentially 6 years is much different than doing it once or even twice. I'm not sure why that is necessary to explain. People get too caught up in wanting to win debates that they ignore the obvious in hopes of turning someone's words against them. Pretty comical.
Where do you rank Tony Parker all time?
How about compared to current PGs?
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:10 am to shel311
quote:I haven't ever thought about it or ranked point guards. No one is arguing team titles is the only or even the primary stat that matters, just one that can/does matter.
Where do you rank Tony Parker all time?
How about compared to current PGs?
Where do you rank Jordan v. Lebron? Are Jordan's 6 titles not a fair criteria for drawing a distinction?
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:12 am to WDE24
quote:
In the obvious context of a debate regarding Jordan v. Lebron.
when lebron won a title younger than jordan did and he's just starting his run? that's fair
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:13 am to WDE24
quote:
Really? Doing it 6 times in essentially 6 years is much different than doing it once or even twice. I'm not sure why that is necessary to explain. People get too caught up in wanting to win debates that they ignore the obvious in hopes of turning someone's words against them. Pretty comical.
To be fair, you went at SFP a page or two ago about only using stats he deems important that support his argument and ignoring others. Yet when you talk about a player elevating his team to be the best (aka winning a title), he countered with the argument of Rasheed Wallace, who was the player that elevated his team to a title. Now, granted, that Piston team is sort of anomaly, where there were (arguably) no true superstars, but the point is that SFP isn't arguing that Sheed is better/as good as Jordan or better than Stockton/Malone/Barkley/etc...he was being a dick with the "using team stats to define singular greatness" to disprove your logic.
That's when you changed your argument from "the best" to "6 titles in basically 6 years." To only focus on the stats you deemed important. To help your argument.
quote:
Pretty comical.
Indeed.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:13 am to WDE24
quote:but I'm sure you have him ahead of Chris Paul ro Steve Nash?
haven't ever thought about it or ranked point guards. No one is arguing team titles is the only or even the primary stat that matters, just one that can/does matter.
quote:
Where do you rank Jordan v. Lebron? Are Jordan's 6 titles not a fair criteria for drawing a distinction?
Ahead of Lebron, but certainly not because of titles.
Who do you have as the greatest player of all time?
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:13 am to WDE24
quote:
Where do you rank Jordan v. Lebron?
jordan had the better career
lebron is just entering his prime. he'll have 3-4 more years of his prime at least. then we'll have his post-prime decline
quote:
Are Jordan's 6 titles not a fair criteria for drawing a distinction?
they are not a fair criteria at all in any debate because titles are team stats
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:13 am to WDE24
quote:
Where do you rank Jordan v. Lebron? Are Jordan's 6 titles not a fair criteria for drawing a distinction?
Honestly, I don't think so at all.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:13 am to WDE24
quote:
Are Jordan's 6 titles not a fair criteria for drawing a distinction?
I think it can be a factor in determining career resume, but it should never be dispositive, which is what this conversation feels like.
Edit: And it's not really a fair factor to include in a discussion of which player is better.
This post was edited on 2/18/13 at 11:15 am
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:14 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Sure. That is fair. I don't hate on LeBron. I like him. I don't think he has the internal drive Jordan had to be the greatest and I don't think he will top Jordan. He could prove me wrong. I think he has the talent and physical skill to be better than Jordan was.
when lebron won a title younger than jordan did and he's just starting his run? that's fair
I think Shaq did to, although in a different way obviously.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:16 am to WDE24
6 is only a fair criteria if Lebron plays baseball for 2 of his prime time seasons.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:16 am to yankeelover
lol at him saying Jordan was created by the media.
you could argue the same for LeBreezy.
dude was on ESPN and magazine covers when he was in high school.
and BS to people saying Jordan was protected while its not the same for LeBron.
Well no shite its not the same. Media isn't the same these days with the internet and the pathetic way ESPN frames everyone as either a heroic winner or punk arse choking loser.
Jordan would get shredded for his d-bag ways exactly how Kobe does now. But he would still be wildly popular with plenty of journalists protecting him.
But then EVERYONE gets crapped on now so LeBron is not some special case. Even with the hate he gets he is still the most popular player in the NBA.
Even Dirk got ripped by idiots during the whole ordeal when it turned out his previous fiance was a grifter. People had the nuts to say he abandoned her in her time of need.
you could argue the same for LeBreezy.
dude was on ESPN and magazine covers when he was in high school.
and BS to people saying Jordan was protected while its not the same for LeBron.
Well no shite its not the same. Media isn't the same these days with the internet and the pathetic way ESPN frames everyone as either a heroic winner or punk arse choking loser.
Jordan would get shredded for his d-bag ways exactly how Kobe does now. But he would still be wildly popular with plenty of journalists protecting him.
But then EVERYONE gets crapped on now so LeBron is not some special case. Even with the hate he gets he is still the most popular player in the NBA.
Even Dirk got ripped by idiots during the whole ordeal when it turned out his previous fiance was a grifter. People had the nuts to say he abandoned her in her time of need.
This post was edited on 2/18/13 at 11:18 am
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:17 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
they are not a fair criteria at all in any debate because titles are team stats
I do disagree with that though...titles can certainly help an argument, and the person does matter. Nobody would argue that Jordan wasn't leading those teams to championships. So using titles can be one way to identify Jordan's greatness. However, you can't really make the same argument with someone like Steve Kerr or Robert Horry.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:18 am to WDE24
quote:
I don't think he has the internal drive Jordan had to be the greatest
what about the massive improvements in his game over the years makes you think he lacks the drive?
i'm talking about his development of his game on an NBA court playing a season/playoff game
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:18 am to CocomoLSU
quote:
Robert Horry.
Big Shot Rob.
GOAT
/thread
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:18 am to Dr RC
quote:
But then EVERYONE gets crapped on now so LeBron is not some special case.
again, i'd much rather discuss jordan in today's media than jordan v. lebron
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:19 am to jturn17
quote:
I think it can be a factor in determining career resume, but it should never be dispositive, which is what this conversation feels like.
Exactly.
And it's also a bit of an unfair comparison since Lebron is still playing (and at his highest level). Once all is said and done and LBJ's career is over, then comparison of championships will be much more relevant.
Also, someone compared both of their titles coming at 28 years old, but comparing number of seasons may work better.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:19 am to WDE24
quote:
I don't think he has the internal drive Jordan had to be the greatest
I think he dispelled that notion in Boston last season during the playoffs.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:20 am to WDE24
quote:
I don't think he has the internal drive Jordan had to be the greatest
Do you have Jordan as the greatest?
And if so, why not Bill Russell? He lifted his teams to 11 titles.
Posted on 2/18/13 at 11:20 am to CocomoLSU
quote:
However, you can't really make the same argument with someone like Steve Kerr or Robert Horry.
that is one reason i hate the concept, as well as what it says about barkley/malone
or hell KG, who finally got on a team worthy of a title towards the end of his career, past his prime, and he wins a title
that doesn't invalidate or change anything about how great he was prior to that year
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