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re: Barry Bonds is the GOAT Baseball Player
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:03 pm to lsufball19
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:03 pm to lsufball19
quote:
Baseball is probably the only sport where one player cannot just take over and turn a team around. One player only bats 4-5 times a game. He doesn't pitch, and the ball doesn't get hit to him but a few times a game on average. One player just does not and cannot affect the outcome of a game like a quarterback can in football or a basketball player can. That's why the "how many championships does he have" is rarely discussed with baseball players' greatness because it's largely irrelevant
While I agree with your overarching point, a pitcher can 100% take over a game. But that's the only position that can and then they can't pitch again for another 4 games.
1
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:06 pm to InkStainedWretch
quote:
The sad thing is that Bonds as he approaches 60 years old now realizes that he screwed up and apparently is a whole lot more pleasant to be around but you can't undo what's done.
(Bonds, 60 yo? Time flyin' like a sonuva bee!)
If that's the case, yeah it is a shame...but at least he's made some kind of peace with himself and others. (Right...water under the bridge -- no Mulligan on the past.
quote:
A whole lot of his crap was also [a view he] was mistreated by "The Man"...
...The problem was Bobby was an awful father and if he was ill treated, the person responsible was looking back at him in the mirror, because he was a sot drunk literally since high school...
Never looked into the hows and whys dynamics of Barry or his dad. Good insight. Bobby Bonds skills-wise and statically should have been an all-time great too.
*An aside: Bobby Bonds -- traded to the Yankees for Bobby Murcer.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:06 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
Baseball HOF voters are the biggest holier than thou dweebs on the planet
PREACH.
Bunch of sanctimonious pricks.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:10 pm to Liberator
Her biography of Koufax is absolutely the definitive Koufax biography.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:11 pm to lsufball19
quote:
One guy in a 9 man lineup cannot single-handedly elevate a bad team to being a champion. Baseball just isn't like that
True.
BUT...can one main cog elevate a slightly above-average team to go all the way?
(I'd submit that M. Mantle did exactly that on a few occasions. IMO their '50 teams were not quite "stacked" -- those they did have Berra and some "above-average-good" player who played over their head when it counted.)
In single years, maybe Yaz did it (1967, lost to the Cards -- whose one main cog, Bob Gibson single-handedly won the Cards 2 Championships -- '64 and '67 -- on teams that were just..."good" enough.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:17 pm to InkStainedWretch
quote:
Her biography of Koufax is absolutely the definitive Koufax biography.
Thanks for the reminder. I'd been wanting to read it. Koufax was unbelievable for 5 years.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:22 pm to Liberator
Koufax was good but Gibson was the best to ever toe the rubber.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:29 pm to Liberator
quote:
Bob Gibson single-handedly won the Cards 2 Championships -- '64 and '67 -- on teams that were just..."good" enough.
singe-handedly? A pitcher? In the 1964 WS, he pitched three times, losing once. His team gave him 7 runs when he allowed 5 in one of the wins. They had to win 4 games to win the WS, not two, so no he didn't do it by himself.
He did win 3 games in the 1967 WS but, again, they needed 4 to win, not 3.
Unless a pitcher is throwing complete game shutouts and pitching every game, no he isn't winning a WS single-handedly. If a pitcher's offense doesn't give him run support, he still loses most of the time. If the other pitchers on staff don't win their games, he still doesn't win a WS. If the bullpen falls apart, he still doesn't win a world series.
I'll give you an example. In the 1999 Playoffs, Pedro Martinez didn't give up a single run and only allowed 5 hits in 17 innings pitched. The Red Sox lost in the ALCS. In the 2004 playoffs, he was great, not quite as great as he was in the 1999 playoffs, but the Red Sox won the WS because everyone around him played better
This post was edited on 2/19/24 at 1:43 pm
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:43 pm to El Segundo Guy
Let’s not get ahead of our skis. I put clean Clemens, Seaver, Maddux, R. Johnson and Pedro Martinez ahead of Gibby as far as post WWII pitchers.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:48 pm to Nutriaitch
You are correct that steroids were in fact illegal even though there was no testing policy at the time.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 1:53 pm to InkStainedWretch
quote:He didn't have the longevity, put I'd throw Sandy Koufax in there
Let’s not get ahead of our skis. I put clean Clemens, Seaver, Maddux, R. Johnson and Pedro Martinez ahead of Gibby as far as post WWII pitchers.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 2:19 pm to Liberator
Aaron was better.
End of discussion.
End of discussion.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 2:20 pm to lsufball19
Peak Koufax certainly, he’s my favorite pitcher who ever lived. It was just such a short peak. But I read something a while back that said everything that was wrong with Koufax could have been addressed with modern orthopedic methods, the only thing is he’d have to be on a hard pitch count like today’s pitchers and might have to be shut down occasionally for rest and maintenance. But would he be Koufax then?
Posted on 2/19/24 at 2:46 pm to SteelerBravesDawg
You might be interested in this, Steeler. I read a piece one time that presented Aaron as an example of not making his sport look any harder than it was. That so many athletes try to “look busy” with all kinds of extraneous physical activity and running around, but that Aaron simply showed up and did his job … hit the ball as hard as he needed to hit it, ran the bases as hard as he needed to run them, caught the ball when he needed to catch it and threw the ball as hard as he needed to throw it, where he needed to throw it.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 3:19 pm to InkStainedWretch
If Ted Williams had the same number of at bats (not plate appearances) as Bonds (to make up for the 5 years of his prime Williams missed) here are William’s career numbers
.344 BA
670 HRs
2300 RBIs
2300 Runs
3400 Hits
Those numbers would likely be higher when you consider the level of peak production Williams missed in the years he did.
It would be more likely his numbers would be closer to this:
.350 BA
720 HRs
2450 RBIs
2450 Runs
3650 Hits
.344 BA
670 HRs
2300 RBIs
2300 Runs
3400 Hits
Those numbers would likely be higher when you consider the level of peak production Williams missed in the years he did.
It would be more likely his numbers would be closer to this:
.350 BA
720 HRs
2450 RBIs
2450 Runs
3650 Hits
Posted on 2/19/24 at 3:24 pm to theunknownknight
Ted Williams was unquestionably the GOAT hitter.
Posted on 2/19/24 at 4:36 pm to TigerLifer18
quote:
2001-2004 fWARs
Barry Bonds: 46.6 fWAR
New York Mets: 46.6 fWAR
Milwaukee Brewers: 45.3 fWAR
Kansas City Royals: 31.0 fWAR
Detroit Tigers: 30.9 fWAR
Montreal Expos: 30.7 fWAR
quote:
26.3% of Barry Bonds’ 12,606 career plate appearances ended with a home run or a walk.
From 2001-2004, that number was 39.5%.
quote:
From 1993-2007, Barry Bonds had more intentional walks than the Twins, Rangers, White Sox, Orioles, A’s, Blue Jays, Royals, and Tigers.
quote:
49.1% of Barry Bonds’ 2,935 career hits were extra base hits.
quote:
From 2001-2004, Barry Bonds played in 573 games and reached base in 539 of them. That’s 94% of his games.
quote:
The Numbers: 36-36
Home runs and stolen bases Bonds averaged per year from 1990 to 1998.
On the whole during that stretch, he ranked third with 327 home runs and sixth with 328 stolen bases. Atop the home run leaderboard was Mark McGwire, yet he merely tied for 464th with nine steals. Otis Nixon led in steals but didn't even crack the top 600 by hitting just eight home runs.
It's otherwise just plain bonkers that 36-36 was Bonds' baseline for nearly a decade.
quote:
Bonds' career OPS against pitchers who are in the Hall of Fame: .986
Posted on 2/19/24 at 4:37 pm to Broski
quote:
While I agree with your overarching point, a pitcher can 100% take over a game. But that's the only position that can and then they can't pitch again for another 4 games.
Orel Hershisher won the '88 World Series for the Dodgers in his magical scoreless inning streak season. But all anyone talks about is Kirk Gibson who had one at-bat.
Same with Jack Morris winning it for the Twins but all anyone talks about is Kirby Puckett's home run.
Barry Bonds hit .245 with 24 RBIs in 48 postseason games.
Babe Ruth hit .326 with 33 RBIs n 41 postseason games.
Guess what? Ruth won a lot of championships. One player can make a huge difference if they don't disappear in the playoffs like Bonds.
This post was edited on 2/19/24 at 4:38 pm
Posted on 2/19/24 at 5:36 pm to TigerLifer18
quote:best hitter that ever lived he was amazing
Barry Bonds is the GOAT Baseball Player
Posted on 2/19/24 at 5:59 pm to justice
Barry was great. But if based are loaded, bottom of ninth, tie game and I need one hitter up to get that run in, it would be Tony Gwynn.
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