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re: Andruw Jones: Hall of Famer?
Posted on 7/9/12 at 8:59 am to Sophandros
Posted on 7/9/12 at 8:59 am to Sophandros
quote:he absolutely was
And no, Andruw Jones was NOT considered the best OVERALL CF in the league at any point of his career.
were you living under a rock??
1
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:02 am to tduecen
quote:I don't think it has anything to do with anything. He was almost the complete opposite of Jim Edmonds in the field.
That he didn't every once in awhile see a ball and say to himself, "watch me make a diving grab here."
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:06 am to tduecen
It did not look like he gave 100% effort, but that was because he never had to do much work at the end of plays. His range is the GOAT, his arm was not elite which is weighing down his defensive WAR.
Andruw got a rep as a lazy player because he would make basket catches, catch the ball to the side, etc. but that was just because he was always so far ahead of the play.
Best range of all time for a CF at his peak.
Andruw got a rep as a lazy player because he would make basket catches, catch the ball to the side, etc. but that was just because he was always so far ahead of the play.
Best range of all time for a CF at his peak.
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:20 am to Pilot Tiger
quote:
he absolutely was
In what year was Jones considered THE BEST OVERALL CF in the league? NAME THE YEAR(S).
I'd like to know, because, you know, even in the heart of Braves country, there are doubts...
This post was edited on 7/9/12 at 9:21 am
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:23 am to Sophandros
2005.
This post was edited on 7/9/12 at 9:24 am
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:24 am to volfan30
If he gets 500, yes.
but he won't get 500. He was a HOF talent with minor league effort and enthusiasm. he could've been every bit as good as Griffey, Jr, but he didn't work as hard.
but he won't get 500. He was a HOF talent with minor league effort and enthusiasm. he could've been every bit as good as Griffey, Jr, but he didn't work as hard.
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:25 am to Sophandros
OK, as this thread has gone on for a bit and neither side’s been very convincing and I’m genuinely on the fence on Andruw, it’s time to bust out the Keltner List – a series of questions designed to clarify one’s thinking on whether a guy belongs in the Hall. There’s no set number of “yes” answers that means “Hall of Famer”, it’s just a good way to organized your thoughts. So here goes…
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
No. He finished 2nd in the MVP vote in 2005, and never finished in the top five in any other season, and only top ten (8th), one other time. He lost the award to Pujols in 2005 because, well, Pujols was better. By a lot.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
No, through no fault of his own. There was this Chipper guy, not to mention perhaps the greatest three man staff ever assembled. He had some seasons where he outperformed Chipper, so we can say “occasionally”, but on overall value, he was never considered the best player on his team.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
Yes. His closest competition was usually Edmonds, Hunter, and Damon and I think Andruw was regularly seen as better than those guys during Andruw’s peak, though occasionally they’d have a superior year.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
Yes. His promotion in 1996 was a big deal and though he lagged a bit in 1997, he was a huge part of those Braves teams which won the division year in and year out. His near-MVP season of 2005 was the Braves last trip to the postseason. So once he declined, so did the Braves.
5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
No. After he turned 30, he is yet to even reach 300 AB’s in a season, much less 500. He’s on his fourth team in five years, and is having a brief resurgence, but he is playing out the string of his career.
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
Not even close. Hell, he’s not the best CF on the ballot since Dale Murphy hasn’t run out of eligibility yet.
7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?
No. Only one of his closest ten players in Similarity Scores are in the Hall, Duke Snider. Dale Murphy is his closest comp and Murphy had a better peak while both had short careers as regulars.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
No. Check out the standard tests with Hall standards in (parens)
Blank Ink – 10 (27)
Grey ink – 47 (144)
Standards Test – 33 (50)
Monitor Test – 109 (100)
He did play great defense and hit over 400 HR’s, which is huge for a centerfielder.
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
He’s certainly WORSE than his hitting numbers suggest because he played in a hitter’s park in one of the most offensively oriented eras in baseball history. He’s #1 all time in Zone Runs for a CF, but he’s about 40th in Range Factor. I can’t square those numbers, though he passes the eyeball test for his defense.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?
No. Dale Murphy. Also, check out who’s #3 in Zone Runs, since that’s the bulk of his case: Paul Blair. Blair didn’t have nearly the bat of Andruw, but he played on a similar level defensively. I think that’s a good comp for Jones – Paul Blair with power. Is that a Hall of Famer?
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
One. Mentioned above. He didn’t deserve to win.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?
Five All-Star games, four as a starter. Which seems about right for a guy with such a short peak.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
Honestly, no. How many great teams are carried by a CF? Even the Giants with Mays struggled to win pennants, and they were loaded at every position. Great CF’s don’t carry their teams to World Series wins, as a general rule. Also, he wasn’t the best player, and the Braves still lost.
14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
No bonus points. He was a really good defensive player who started his career as a teenager. So there’s that.
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
I’m not aware of any “Andruw Jones is a big jerk” stories. So we’ll give him this.
Looking at the List, I’m saying no. Andruw Jones was a very good defensive player, but he’s not a Hall of Famer. But I could still be convinced.
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
No. He finished 2nd in the MVP vote in 2005, and never finished in the top five in any other season, and only top ten (8th), one other time. He lost the award to Pujols in 2005 because, well, Pujols was better. By a lot.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
No, through no fault of his own. There was this Chipper guy, not to mention perhaps the greatest three man staff ever assembled. He had some seasons where he outperformed Chipper, so we can say “occasionally”, but on overall value, he was never considered the best player on his team.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
Yes. His closest competition was usually Edmonds, Hunter, and Damon and I think Andruw was regularly seen as better than those guys during Andruw’s peak, though occasionally they’d have a superior year.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
Yes. His promotion in 1996 was a big deal and though he lagged a bit in 1997, he was a huge part of those Braves teams which won the division year in and year out. His near-MVP season of 2005 was the Braves last trip to the postseason. So once he declined, so did the Braves.
5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
No. After he turned 30, he is yet to even reach 300 AB’s in a season, much less 500. He’s on his fourth team in five years, and is having a brief resurgence, but he is playing out the string of his career.
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
Not even close. Hell, he’s not the best CF on the ballot since Dale Murphy hasn’t run out of eligibility yet.
7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?
No. Only one of his closest ten players in Similarity Scores are in the Hall, Duke Snider. Dale Murphy is his closest comp and Murphy had a better peak while both had short careers as regulars.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
No. Check out the standard tests with Hall standards in (parens)
Blank Ink – 10 (27)
Grey ink – 47 (144)
Standards Test – 33 (50)
Monitor Test – 109 (100)
He did play great defense and hit over 400 HR’s, which is huge for a centerfielder.
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
He’s certainly WORSE than his hitting numbers suggest because he played in a hitter’s park in one of the most offensively oriented eras in baseball history. He’s #1 all time in Zone Runs for a CF, but he’s about 40th in Range Factor. I can’t square those numbers, though he passes the eyeball test for his defense.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?
No. Dale Murphy. Also, check out who’s #3 in Zone Runs, since that’s the bulk of his case: Paul Blair. Blair didn’t have nearly the bat of Andruw, but he played on a similar level defensively. I think that’s a good comp for Jones – Paul Blair with power. Is that a Hall of Famer?
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
One. Mentioned above. He didn’t deserve to win.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?
Five All-Star games, four as a starter. Which seems about right for a guy with such a short peak.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
Honestly, no. How many great teams are carried by a CF? Even the Giants with Mays struggled to win pennants, and they were loaded at every position. Great CF’s don’t carry their teams to World Series wins, as a general rule. Also, he wasn’t the best player, and the Braves still lost.
14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
No bonus points. He was a really good defensive player who started his career as a teenager. So there’s that.
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
I’m not aware of any “Andruw Jones is a big jerk” stories. So we’ll give him this.
Looking at the List, I’m saying no. Andruw Jones was a very good defensive player, but he’s not a Hall of Famer. But I could still be convinced.
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:27 am to volfan30
First, I must acknowledge that I'm a Braves fan and grew up watching and loving Andruw, so there is inherent bias.
However, trying to look at his career pragmatically:
-His peak was short
-For CF he's 3rd all time in HRs
-Best defensive CF of all time
-Top 10 in CF WAR (every other player in the top 10 is in the Hall)
He may not get in due to the fact that he played in the steroid era, and that his peak was relatively short, as he will finish his career as a role player.
But there's definitely a case to put him in.
However, trying to look at his career pragmatically:
-His peak was short
-For CF he's 3rd all time in HRs
-Best defensive CF of all time
-Top 10 in CF WAR (every other player in the top 10 is in the Hall)
He may not get in due to the fact that he played in the steroid era, and that his peak was relatively short, as he will finish his career as a role player.
But there's definitely a case to put him in.
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:32 am to Jcorye1
quote:
.339 OBP
.489 Slugging
Not HOF #'s
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:36 am to volfan30
So ONCE out of his entire career, did people consider him the best overall player at his position.
And in that year, he had his ONLY top five MVP season. He finished second.
One could argue that if he gets to 500 HR, not only would it have happened during the "Steroid Era", but also that he would have done is by compiling at the end of his career. As even his biggest advocates say (and to be 100% fair, I'm being an advocate of a different sort right now...), his biggest knock is inconsistency. That's going to count against him in HOF voting.
From watching a lot of Braves games and being inundated with Braves talk on the radio and in the local paper for the last decade or so, I have heard all of the positives and negatives about A Jones, and I think that it's the negatives that will stick out among the people who will be doing the HOF voting.
I think that another thing that will go against him is that his Black Ink and Gray Ink scores are well below standards, but his HOF Monitor score is pretty good. His HOF Standards score is below average. To me, that makes him a borderline case, and thus one who will be argued OUT of the HOF because of his inconsistency, the era he plays in, and his peer group.
And in that year, he had his ONLY top five MVP season. He finished second.
One could argue that if he gets to 500 HR, not only would it have happened during the "Steroid Era", but also that he would have done is by compiling at the end of his career. As even his biggest advocates say (and to be 100% fair, I'm being an advocate of a different sort right now...), his biggest knock is inconsistency. That's going to count against him in HOF voting.
From watching a lot of Braves games and being inundated with Braves talk on the radio and in the local paper for the last decade or so, I have heard all of the positives and negatives about A Jones, and I think that it's the negatives that will stick out among the people who will be doing the HOF voting.
I think that another thing that will go against him is that his Black Ink and Gray Ink scores are well below standards, but his HOF Monitor score is pretty good. His HOF Standards score is below average. To me, that makes him a borderline case, and thus one who will be argued OUT of the HOF because of his inconsistency, the era he plays in, and his peer group.
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:37 am to Sophandros
quote:PICK A YEAR FROM 1998-2007ish
In what year was Jones considered THE BEST OVERALL CF in the league? NAME THE YEAR(S).
in that year, he was considered the best CF in the game
next?
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:40 am to Pilot Tiger
quote:
PICK A YEAR FROM 1998-2007ish
in that year, he was considered the best CF in the game
next?
Not really. You could argue that other CFs were more valuable to their teams in any of a number of those years.
Read my more recent post on this thread, where I explain to you why I don't think he gets in.
The Hall of Fame is supposed to mean something.
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:41 am to Baloo
quote:i think 2005 and 2006 were both MVP-type seasons and I would argue that he was more valuable to his team in 2005 than anyone else. he carried that team.
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
One. Mentioned above. He didn’t deserve to win.
quote:to me this is the most important question. For several years, he was considered the best at his position, maybe not the entire 10 years of GG's, but for at least 6-7 of those he was.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
Yes
Is 6-7 years of being considered the best at one's position enough? we'll find out, but I say yes
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:46 am to Sophandros
quote:you could argue that and you would be wrong. It's not andruw's fault he played with other HOF's.
You could argue that other CFs were more valuable to their teams in any of a number of those years
And he's still #1 OVERALL in total zone runs. That would seem to argue that he was actually just as if not MORE valuable to his team than other CF's
quote:that's laughable considering guys like Mazeroski and Lloyd Waner are in
The Hall of Fame is supposed to mean something
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:47 am to Pilot Tiger
Mazeroski is unquestionably the best defensive 2nd basemen of all time. He's the best guy at a critical defensive position, and he hit one of the biggest home runs in baseball history. Maz is borderline, but I think he's in on merit.
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:50 am to Baloo
i agree....
also took 30 years to get in and via veteran's committee at that.
My point was the, the HOF is supposed to mean something, is kinda a terrible argument when guys are getting in like he got in
also took 30 years to get in and via veteran's committee at that.
My point was the, the HOF is supposed to mean something, is kinda a terrible argument when guys are getting in like he got in
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:53 am to Pilot Tiger
quote:
My point was the, the HOF is supposed to mean something, is kinda a terrible argument when guys are getting in like he got in
My point is that if you are willing to acknowledge that a mistake may have been made in the past, you don't try to rectify that mistake by making the same mistake again.
In other words, if your argument is, "Well HE made it in and didn't deserve it, so my guy should make it in," then all you're doing is further proving that YOUR GUY doesn't deserve to be in.
Posted on 7/9/12 at 9:56 am to Sophandros
quote:that's not an argument I've made
In other words, if your argument is, "Well HE made it in and didn't deserve it, so my guy should make it in,"
Posted on 7/9/12 at 10:02 am to Sophandros
Andruw Jones was without a doubt a top 5 player in baseball 1998, 2000 and 2005 he was probable top 10 in 2002 and 2006
Posted on 7/9/12 at 10:02 am to Sophandros
quote:
his biggest knock is inconsistency. That's going to count against him in HOF voting.
He was consistently awesome. For like 10 straight yrs in the field and with the bat. This isn't even including his break out as a 19 year old..
Had a couple of sucky years.. and is possible to a resurgence.
Who knows.. right now he is not.. let's see what happens.
And it doesn't matter in baseball how you pile on.. Some tried to take credit away from Aaron passing Ruth.. but it doesn't matter how you get there.. Just get there
quote:
From watching a lot of Braves games and being inundated with Braves talk on the radio and in the local paper for the last decade or so, I have heard all of the positives and negatives about A Jones, and I think that it's the negatives that will stick out among the people who will be doing the HOF voting.
What negatives? Braves fans can be negative as frick.. but even in his last season with Atlanta everyone hated him because his avg blew balls.. BUT HE STILL drove in like 90 rbi's and hit 26 bombs.. I'm sorry but he's still being too penalized for a couple of horrible seasons. A COUPLE.. People are too quick to forget the past and remember the most recent.
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