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re: There are some major issues lurking in the US financial markets

Posted on 1/15/19 at 9:09 pm to
Posted by CajunTiger92
Member since Dec 2007
2861 posts
Posted on 1/15/19 at 9:09 pm to
Look at the history of the SP500. Particularly when you have a steep decline like we did in 2018. More times than not, we end up higher a year out. We might get a retest of the December low but I don't see the type of declines your talking about without some major unforeseen event.
Posted by Hussss
Helena, AL
Member since Oct 2016
7777 posts
Posted on 1/15/19 at 9:39 pm to
Wish I could agree but just too many headwinds in my opinion.
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 1/16/19 at 5:41 am to
quote:

Have you added to your short position now that SP has crossed 2600?


Yes, I have.

The markets have followed global central bank monetary actions to a remarkable degree the past several years, and recent weeks seems to me to be following the same pattern. So, yes, we get some positive headlines from Netflix, but the big market story this week has been a surprising injection of Chinese monetary stimulus.

CNBC: " China just injected a record amount of money to stimulate its economy" ("On Wednesday, the Chinese central bank injected a net 560 billion yuan ($83 billion) into the banking system, the highest ever recorded for a single day.")

It's difficult to tell if we should be alarmed at the emergency-type feel of the action, or impressed with the iron-grip power of China's authoritarian control over the economy, or perhaps reading tea leaves about shifts in bargaining power regarding the ongoing U.S.-China trade negotiations.

Over in the U.S., we've had recent comments from Bostic ( on Jan. 7) and Yellen ( on Monday) indicating that the Fed may not hike rates at all in 2019.

The question you've got to ask yourself, I suppose, is whether this recent monetary loosening is (A) yet another round of life support that will continue to be a boon to a lengthy bull market; or (B) the last stages of realization that a global recession is upon us, acting as a temporary salve that will ultimately be drowned out by the larger background story. I'm going with (B).


P.S. -- In the realm of "signs of the apocalypse," I present to you Jim Cramer...

CNBC: " Cramer says the bear market in stocks ended on Christmas Eve"

Interpret the implications of that headline at your own leisure.
Posted by CajunTiger92
Member since Dec 2007
2861 posts
Posted on 1/16/19 at 5:46 am to
quote:

but just too many headwinds in my opinion.


They don’t call it the wall of worry for nothing.
This post was edited on 1/16/19 at 3:21 pm
Posted by castorinho
13623 posts
Member since Nov 2010
86565 posts
Posted on 1/16/19 at 12:34 pm to
quote:

Just remember that number on AMZN: 1676.16
Posted by Hussss
Helena, AL
Member since Oct 2016
7777 posts
Posted on 1/16/19 at 12:40 pm to
Posted by castorinho
13623 posts
Member since Nov 2010
86565 posts
Posted on 1/16/19 at 1:16 pm to
Posted by Shepherd88
Member since Dec 2013
4883 posts
Posted on 1/16/19 at 1:55 pm to
AMZN: 1691.31 as I type this... so what’s your call again?
Posted by Hussss
Helena, AL
Member since Oct 2016
7777 posts
Posted on 1/16/19 at 1:59 pm to
Do you own it?
Posted by Shepherd88
Member since Dec 2013
4883 posts
Posted on 1/16/19 at 2:35 pm to
I actually do own some. I sold my gains awhile back but still maintain a position.
Posted by Thib-a-doe Tiger
Member since Nov 2012
36573 posts
Posted on 1/16/19 at 6:04 pm to
quote:

AMZN: 1691.31 as I type this... so what’s your call again



Finished at 1683. Shoulda sold that shite baw
Posted by LSUcam7
FL
Member since Sep 2016
8854 posts
Posted on 1/17/19 at 1:49 pm to
Trade tariff risk just lessened

WSJ Link
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
133624 posts
Posted on 1/17/19 at 1:56 pm to
quote:

Finished at 1683. Shoulda sold that shite baw
Nah, he's good. AMZN is at $1,694 as I post this.

ETA: And the SPX is at 2634.

ETA2: The SPX closed today at 2635.96. Wasn't 2600 the magic number that we weren't going to go over before the big crash??
This post was edited on 1/17/19 at 3:42 pm
Posted by Thib-a-doe Tiger
Member since Nov 2012
36573 posts
Posted on 1/17/19 at 8:01 pm to
I dunno, too many predictions to keep track of
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35373 posts
Posted on 1/17/19 at 8:52 pm to
quote:

yet another round of life support that will continue to be a boon to a lengthy bull market
Well the US isn’t loosening, although it may be tightening less. And China may be loosening, but their market is in a bear run.
quote:

the last stages of realization that a global recession is upon us, acting as a temporary salve that will ultimately be drowned out by the larger background story.
Why does it have to be one or the other. And it could be that a global “slowdown” is upon us, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a recession, just less growth. In fact, that’s the general conensus for the US economy. 2018 was peak growth and it will slowdown, but not to recession levels.
Posted by Doc Fenton
New York, NY
Member since Feb 2007
52698 posts
Posted on 1/18/19 at 5:26 am to
quote:

Why does it have to be one or the other


Good point. Why do I break the current situation into binary options? I would say there's not much middle ground, because recent bond and equities market reactions are giving us starkly different interpretations that can't both be right. I think one of these interpretations is going to give way, and then the dam (either for the bulls or for the bears) will burst.

We've seen the European sovereign debt crisis in 2011, and the Chinese market crash from 2015-16 (which is still crashed, by the way Shenzhen / Shanghai / Hong Kong), which are good examples of bumps on the road within a larger bull market. The bullish case says that late 2017 falls within the same category.

So you might ask: Why can't we have something more serious than either 2011 or 2015, but which at the same time doesn't amount to something like 1929 or 2000? I can give several reasons.

First, the market moves since October have been so sharp and compressed, that it's difficult to imagine that serious underlying bear-vs-bull battles aren't still underway. That doesn't suggest a happy medium. That suggests sharply bi-modal market expectations from two distinct sets of investors (which I think could clarify some issues related to lynxcat's apparent bewilderment).

I previously cited (back on pg. 6 of this thread) Hussman's theory of classical market crash patterns having identifiable points "A" through "G".

A -- 2939.86 in intraday trading (10/3/18)
B -- 2603.54 (down 11.4%) in initial selloff (10/29/18)
C -- 2815.15 (still down 4.2% from 10/3 peak) (11/7/18)
D -- 2631.09 (down 10.5% from 10/3 peak) (11/23/18)
E -- 2800.18 (down only 4.75% from 10/3 peak) (12/3/18)
F -- 2351.10 (down 20.03% from 10/3 peak) (12/24/18)
G -- 2700??? (that would be down 8.2% from the 10/3 peak)

So far, we still haven't reached Point G. Even prior to 12/24, Hussman had been expressing his surprise that a "scorching rally" had not occurred, given the "compression" of the market drops earlier in the month of December. Once the rally began after Christmas, he threw up his hands and said it could go to 2500 or 2600 or 2700, but he also indicated (i) that he didn't think it would make it to the 2800-level associated with Point C and Point E; (ii) that he had some internals that suggested a possible top at 2580-2630; and (iii) that the path to Point G was typically a small 1-2 week rally.

We're a little off from (ii) and (iii), given that the rally is now 23 days old, but I am inclined to believe that the bigger picture of (i) still holds.

The reason the rally from Point F to Point G is taking such a (relatively) long time is because there are artificial policymaker actions at play--namely, unusually bullish remarks from Powell, Bostic, and Yellen; unusual monetary stimulus from China; and an unusual ability of the White House to manipulate market moves with leaks about the status of U.S.-China trade negotiations.

But the bears arrived and began ripping into the market with a vengeance on 10/3, 11/7, and 12/3, and I believe they will do so again.

Why? Because the market moves are so sharp and compressed (suggesting bi-modal investor expectations), and because of what I cited about Wall Street's almost uniform, lock-step EPS projections for 2019 in the $170 - $178 range. We won't make it anywhere near those projections, and that's true regardless of what the Fed does, and regardless of any U.S.-China tariff reductions. That's the real story here.

I used "global recession" in the common news media sense of the term (industrial recessions in China, Germany, etc.), but the housing markets and the bond markets are telling us a very different story than what the equity markets had been telling us prior to October 3.

So far, and for the past 8 or 9 years, the U.S. equity market has mirrored global central bank liquidity with a very high correlation. But the theory that loose monetary policy can indefinitely forestall a market crash (and conversely, that Fed rate hikes "cause" market crashes) is mistaken. Once investor expectations start to bifurcate, and guidance on future corporate sales revenue began to slip, there's nothing that can stop the plunge downward.

As LSUtoOmaha remarked at the bottom of pg. 6, "if we cannot handle one quarter of one percentage point increase, or even a full percentage point if you assume rate hikes continue next year, then what does that say about the weakness of the economy in general?"

It says that the prior expectations of U.S. equity investors were completely and totally different from actual reality, and that there won't likely be a lot of middle ground this time like there had been in 2011 or 2015.

Now, the market may continue drifting up well into February. The Fed has already shot its load in terms of talking up the markets, and any more attempts to ease markets by pulling back from its balance sheet unwinding schedule is likely to cause panic and do more harm that good. The White House still has some dry powder on U.S.-China relations, and may even succeed in pushing the market above 2800, but its ability to positively move markets is waning (and its ability to negatively move markets is waxing). Eventually, this over-inflated whale of a bull market has to die.

So use whatever metaphor or analogy you like about bulls, bears, sharks, whales, or blood in the water; but I do smell blood in the water, and I promise you, I will be there for the kill if and when it happens this year.
Posted by Hussss
Helena, AL
Member since Oct 2016
7777 posts
Posted on 1/18/19 at 7:44 am to
SPY hit 266.55 this morning (roughly 2670 SPX cash)

SPX 2750 is my stop

SPX 2713 is the 61.8 Fibonacci retracement. AMZN 61.8 Fib is $1750 btw

Buying last round of volatility SPX 2650-2700 so this means last round (25% more) today which will bring me up to 40% long vol.

Still holding 25% equities which I will start scaling out of today. Have some limit orders in on FCX ($12.50) and MCK ($125) here in pre market but I doubt they get filled since trading is quite thin in pre market.

ETA: no big crash until Spring
This post was edited on 1/18/19 at 8:30 am
Posted by Thib-a-doe Tiger
Member since Nov 2012
36573 posts
Posted on 1/18/19 at 8:49 am to
You said previously there would be a crash, then you argued you never said it, and now the crash is back on



ETA: I know, I know. You traded the dot com bubble, black Monday, and the crash of 29
This post was edited on 1/18/19 at 8:51 am
Posted by Hussss
Helena, AL
Member since Oct 2016
7777 posts
Posted on 1/18/19 at 8:50 am to
Might want to go check that again
Posted by Thib-a-doe Tiger
Member since Nov 2012
36573 posts
Posted on 1/18/19 at 8:51 am to
Russian has quoted you several times. I’m not going check your edits
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