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Message

Why would a depth limited team like LSU start an ACE against a lower seeded team?
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:15 am
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:15 am
I understand alot of people have beating this topic to death. I'm also not claiming to be a baseball expert, I'm most definitely not.
So like the title, here's my question: Why would a team that only has 2 days of starting quality pitchers (LSU) start one of their 2 game changing pitchers against an objectively inferior team?
Would it not be reasonable to start someone like Ack , Hurd, or Herring, while also preparing Jump or Holman to take over if things get out of hand? Obviously a different scenario, but think game 3 in the CWS finals against Florida last year. You used your bullpen to control the game, but you had Paul Skenes, albeit on somewhat short rest, preparing in the bullpen as a closer should the necessity arise.
What would be the downside of this? Outside of giving up maybe a single run before your ace could take over should things get out of hand?
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a, " I'm overlooking Wofford" kind of question. This is more along the lines of, "Unless UNC seriously shits the bed in game 1 and game 2, we are going to have to beat them AT LEAST once but likely twice to make the CWS." kind of question.
UNC is the #4 national seed for a reason, they are REALLY good. I just can't see us beating them twice without both Jump and Holman pitching 6-7 quality innings per game. They also have the best home record in the country at 32-2, just to add more to their resume.
So just let me know, why would this be a bad idea?
So like the title, here's my question: Why would a team that only has 2 days of starting quality pitchers (LSU) start one of their 2 game changing pitchers against an objectively inferior team?
Would it not be reasonable to start someone like Ack , Hurd, or Herring, while also preparing Jump or Holman to take over if things get out of hand? Obviously a different scenario, but think game 3 in the CWS finals against Florida last year. You used your bullpen to control the game, but you had Paul Skenes, albeit on somewhat short rest, preparing in the bullpen as a closer should the necessity arise.
What would be the downside of this? Outside of giving up maybe a single run before your ace could take over should things get out of hand?
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a, " I'm overlooking Wofford" kind of question. This is more along the lines of, "Unless UNC seriously shits the bed in game 1 and game 2, we are going to have to beat them AT LEAST once but likely twice to make the CWS." kind of question.
UNC is the #4 national seed for a reason, they are REALLY good. I just can't see us beating them twice without both Jump and Holman pitching 6-7 quality innings per game. They also have the best home record in the country at 32-2, just to add more to their resume.
So just let me know, why would this be a bad idea?
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:19 am to Hurricane2020
- We had arguably 1 dominant pitcher going into regional play last year. The depth was even shakier after State, Auburn and Hoover this time last year.
- Perfect scenario is Jump can give us 8 innings against Wofford. Jay has been pushing his pitch count every week. Holman does his normal outing
- If we go 2-0 then our Sunday guys would be going against whichever teams midweek guys
That's why you roll out Jump and Holman first two games
- Perfect scenario is Jump can give us 8 innings against Wofford. Jay has been pushing his pitch count every week. Holman does his normal outing
- If we go 2-0 then our Sunday guys would be going against whichever teams midweek guys
That's why you roll out Jump and Holman first two games
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:19 am to Hurricane2020
quote:
So just let me know, why would this be a bad idea?
Reason 1- you run a much higher risk of depleting your bullpen depth in game 1. You are worried about starting pitching depth, but the bullpen arms will be even more important.
Reason 2- you are risking losing game 1.. Wofford has good hitting numbers. Lose game 1 then you are also risking having to play more games, and even a possibility exiting the tournament without one of your two aces pitching.
Reason 3- if we can win with both Jump and Holman then we force UNC to have to play more games. Sure, we will be slightly depleted pitching in game 3 and 4, but UNC (or whoever) would have to beat us with pitching in their 4th and 5th games.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:24 am to Hold That Tiger 10
You play to go 2-0. If you go 2-0 the other teams bullpen will be more depleted than yours. The first 2 games matter most.
Other reasons that haven't been mentioned yet:
1. If you're fighting for your season in a winner take all game on Monday then whoever pitches Friday might come back in relief.
2. You want your top starters on schedule to start games 1 and 2 of the SR on full rest
Other reasons that haven't been mentioned yet:
1. If you're fighting for your season in a winner take all game on Monday then whoever pitches Friday might come back in relief.
2. You want your top starters on schedule to start games 1 and 2 of the SR on full rest
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:25 am to Hurricane2020
We did it against Tulane with Skenes and it seemed to work out fine.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:26 am to Hurricane2020
Because LSU has been inconsistent all year.
Because 1 crooked inning can lose you the game.
The other side will pitch their best pitcher.
We do not have a 3rd starter who is dependable
We cannot afford to lose game 1. We have to stay in the winners bracket due to lack of consistent pitching.
There is a long list of reasons.
Because 1 crooked inning can lose you the game.
The other side will pitch their best pitcher.
We do not have a 3rd starter who is dependable
We cannot afford to lose game 1. We have to stay in the winners bracket due to lack of consistent pitching.
There is a long list of reasons.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:29 am to Hurricane2020
quote:
Why would a depth limited team like LSU start an ACE against a lower seeded team?
We criticized our bullpen last year and we had one of the best college pitchers ever and another 1st round draft pick. Then our pitching ended up carrying us in Omaha. If you think we are "depth limited" then so is 95% of every other college baseball team.
We are head and shoulders better than Wofford but baseball is a funny game where anyone can win any game. If you think wasting an ace against Wofford is risky, try losing the first game of a regional with a "depth limited" bullpen.
With that being said I would love to see Jay bring out Ack, just because I really believe he can handle the pressure. But we all know its probably going to be Jump and I can't blame him for that.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:34 am to Hurricane2020
quote:
Why would a depth limited team like LSU start an ACE against a lower seeded team?
Because you aren't guaranteed 3 games.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:36 am to Hurricane2020
All these teams are here for a reason, so to put yourself behind the 8 ball by shortchanging due to something as small as the name across the jersey is quite foolish
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:39 am to hirematthouse
Also, your pen only has to win one game. If you screw around and lose game 1 then your pen has to win 2 games.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:41 am to Hurricane2020
We can’t act like we’re at home playing against a 4 seed. We’re away from home against a 3 seed that has a great offense which involves a lot of running (stolen bases). This scenario screams having a lefty ace like Jump on the mound to try to secure a 1-0 start.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:42 am to Hurricane2020
Jump threw last Tuesday. Holman last Wednesday. The Rant wants Jay to trot out Ack in Game 1 after throwing…Sunday??? 

This post was edited on 5/29/24 at 10:17 am
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:46 am to Hurricane2020
First, "objectively inferior" is really your subjective opinion. Wofford and LSU haven't played this season. Yes, the level of competition Wofford has played is, on the whole, worse than that of LSU. But that doesn't mean in a one game setting Wofford is incapable of winning. LSU is a No.2 seed. 3 seeds winning game one of a regional is not an uncommon occurrence. All you have to do is look at the 2022 tournament where 3 seeds won 10 of the 16 2/3 matchups.
The obvious biggest issue is that you increase your risk of losing game one by starting your, at best, third best pitcher. In your scenario you start Ackenhausen and have Jump/Holman available if things get out of hand. If they do, now you've just wasted one of your starters and a top reliever to, at best, win game one and at worst, still lose. Which puts you in a situation where you have to play in the losers bracket to avoid the end of your season. Are you going to start another bullpen arm there because you still will have to beat (likely) UNC twice? If so, you increase your risk of losing once more and, worse, going 0-2 without having started a single game with your top to pitchers. I'm sure every manager would love to have to explain to his team and everyone else how their season is over, losing two games where you chose to no start your top 2 pitchers. Which means you are probably going to use your second starter.
In postseason play you don't take things for granted. You set yourself up in the best position to win game the game in front of you then prepare for the next one as it comes.
First, this EXACT same statement was made ahead of the CWS last year. There was "no way" LSU could win if they didn't start 2-0 with Skenes/Floyd.
Second, if you start 2-0 in the regional, the next time you face UNC it would be their fourth game to LSU's third. Plus, weather permitting, it would be the second game of the DAY for UNC. That's advantage LSU from a pitching standpoint.
In the end though this is ALL academic. Jump has started every game one for over a month with his first game 1 start coming against Tennessee. Since that Tennessee series LSU has won every game Jump has started except for the Alabama game...which was the result of bullpen/fielding meltdown. Therefore, Johnson is not going to look at the situation and say "We've been playing well....let's change things up". Particularly considering he clearly was not confident LSU was even a NCAAT team just over a week ago (which is why he started Jump in the SECT on short rest).
Jump is starting on Friday.
The obvious biggest issue is that you increase your risk of losing game one by starting your, at best, third best pitcher. In your scenario you start Ackenhausen and have Jump/Holman available if things get out of hand. If they do, now you've just wasted one of your starters and a top reliever to, at best, win game one and at worst, still lose. Which puts you in a situation where you have to play in the losers bracket to avoid the end of your season. Are you going to start another bullpen arm there because you still will have to beat (likely) UNC twice? If so, you increase your risk of losing once more and, worse, going 0-2 without having started a single game with your top to pitchers. I'm sure every manager would love to have to explain to his team and everyone else how their season is over, losing two games where you chose to no start your top 2 pitchers. Which means you are probably going to use your second starter.
In postseason play you don't take things for granted. You set yourself up in the best position to win game the game in front of you then prepare for the next one as it comes.
quote:
UNC is the #4 national seed for a reason, they are REALLY good. I just can't see us beating them twice without both Jump and Holman pitching 6-7 quality innings per game. They also have the best home record in the country at 32-2, just to add more to their resume.
First, this EXACT same statement was made ahead of the CWS last year. There was "no way" LSU could win if they didn't start 2-0 with Skenes/Floyd.
Second, if you start 2-0 in the regional, the next time you face UNC it would be their fourth game to LSU's third. Plus, weather permitting, it would be the second game of the DAY for UNC. That's advantage LSU from a pitching standpoint.
In the end though this is ALL academic. Jump has started every game one for over a month with his first game 1 start coming against Tennessee. Since that Tennessee series LSU has won every game Jump has started except for the Alabama game...which was the result of bullpen/fielding meltdown. Therefore, Johnson is not going to look at the situation and say "We've been playing well....let's change things up". Particularly considering he clearly was not confident LSU was even a NCAAT team just over a week ago (which is why he started Jump in the SECT on short rest).
Jump is starting on Friday.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:46 am to Hurricane2020
Because losing the 1st game is disastrous.
And LSU can set up a Holman/Jump + Herring stack in GM2 and feel just as good as having both starters available.
And LSU can set up a Holman/Jump + Herring stack in GM2 and feel just as good as having both starters available.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:54 am to Hold That Tiger 10
Reason 1- How does using your day 3 pitching lineup on day 1 hurt your bullpen? You are still using the same arms, maybe less arms since you are banking on the ability of your bullpen to beat an objectively worse team in fewer pitches than would be needed to close out a team like UNC.
Reason 2- This is the big one, losing is bad. Having to play an extra game is terrible for a team like LSU. But that's why I mentioned prepare your ace to take over if it seems your bullpen is struggling. Don't get down 3 scores before putting in your ace. If your day 3 starter begins to struggle, pull him ASAP.
Reason 3- I actually get this one. But assuming we stay in the winners bracket, do you think our game 3 pitching is better than UNC's game 4 pitching? If things would work out using our day 3 pitching for game 1 we would be using our day 1 on game 2 against UNC, and our day 2 on game 3 vs UNC.
Reason 2- This is the big one, losing is bad. Having to play an extra game is terrible for a team like LSU. But that's why I mentioned prepare your ace to take over if it seems your bullpen is struggling. Don't get down 3 scores before putting in your ace. If your day 3 starter begins to struggle, pull him ASAP.
Reason 3- I actually get this one. But assuming we stay in the winners bracket, do you think our game 3 pitching is better than UNC's game 4 pitching? If things would work out using our day 3 pitching for game 1 we would be using our day 1 on game 2 against UNC, and our day 2 on game 3 vs UNC.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 9:55 am to Hurricane2020
Bc LSU has no margin for error
Posted on 5/29/24 at 10:00 am to Hold That Tiger 10
quote:
Reason 1- you run a much higher risk of depleting your bullpen depth in game 1. You are worried about starting pitching depth, but the bullpen arms will be even more important. Reason 2- you are risking losing game 1.. Wofford has good hitting numbers. Lose game 1 then you are also risking having to play more games, and even a possibility exiting the tournament without one of your two aces pitching. Reason 3- if we can win with both Jump and Holman then we force UNC to have to play more games. Sure, we will be slightly depleted pitching in game 3 and 4, but UNC (or whoever) would have to beat us with pitching in their 4th and 5th games.
Counter 1: It’s better to deplete the pen on Friday than on Sunday.
Counter 2: UNC is an even better hitting team that scored 11.2 R/G against “Sunday” pitching going 9-1 in conference in Game 3s and losing only 2 home games all year.
Counter 3: UNC’s pitching depth isn’t much better, but they are hard to outhit, especially at home. Again, 9-1 in Game 3s.
It’s undoubtedly a huge risk to throw Ack or Hurd against Wofford. UNC is just such a good hitting team that it’s an even bigger risk to expend an ace against anyone else. More than likely LSU needs to go 3-0 to win the regional. The question is whether Ack/Hurd give you a better chance against Wofford and their #1 or UNC and their #3 or #4. UNC’s record on Sundays and offensive production in those games makes me think the chances are better against Wofford even with their #1 pitcher. Unfortunately LSU has no clear path without taking risks.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 10:05 am to Hurricane2020
Johnson won the whole damn thing last year and surpassed your expectations on the secT.
Just let him coach.
Just let him coach.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 10:08 am to Hurricane2020
The biggest reason we are seeded so high is Jump and Holiman. If you remove them from the equation, the team we play improves their chances of beating us. They have their one and we have Johnny Wholestaff.
We must win games 1 and 2 in order to use our Johnny Wholestaff agsinst our opponents 4th pitcher in our third game where we should have an advantage.
We must win games 1 and 2 in order to use our Johnny Wholestaff agsinst our opponents 4th pitcher in our third game where we should have an advantage.
Posted on 5/29/24 at 10:10 am to Hurricane2020
quote:
Reason 2- This is the big one, losing is bad. Having to play an extra game is terrible for a team like LSU. But that's why I mentioned prepare your ace to take over if it seems your bullpen is struggling. Don't get down 3 scores before putting in your ace. If your day 3 starter begins to struggle, pull him ASAP.
There is no guarantee that you win the game simply by "putting in your ace". Particularly considering you would be bringing in a guy who hasn't come out of the bullpen all season. The if you lose you have burned both your (presumed) top reliever and "ace" in a LOSS. That is the kind of stupidity that gets coaches fired (not that Johnson would be fired)
The only time coaches do this is in elimination games where they are considering throwing a starter or short rest. They don't want to have to use the starter. But given the finality of a loss they are willing to pull out all of the stops. That's not the situation you would be dealing with in Game 1 of a regional. It would be burning a starter to overcome an increase risk of loss the manager himself created
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