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re: Pelini says Tigers didn't have personnel for switch to 4-3; Ed Orgeron disagrees
Posted on 12/3/20 at 10:33 pm to Jcorye1
Posted on 12/3/20 at 10:33 pm to Jcorye1
quote:
Again, I just don't understand the difference at the college level. They aren't running Belichick level defenses here
I think it’s more about the core concepts and techniques than the week-to-week defensive game planning or play calling. When you train a guy to play a certain way for 2-3 years, it can be tough to now ask him to throw all of that out and do something different. You have to rebuild the “muscle memory” part of the scheme back up from scratch. There are major differences in how the front 7 are expected to read/react in Pelini’s 4-3 vs. Aranda’s 3-4.
quote:
your big run stuffer can still play nose, and your tweener OLBs can play Defensive Ends in most systems.
I think the positional mismatches are a little overstated - we have a lot of guys that fit the prototypical mold for their position, they are just inexperienced. Shelvin and Ika were probably the biggest concern there, but those guys aren’t even on the team now.
That said, there’s a big difference between having guys that “can” play various positions vs. having guys that were recruited specifically for those positions. We have guys that can play 4-3 DT. But they might not fit the exact mold of what Bo wants at that position.
quote:
Also, with the proliferation of the spread, how often are teams in base defense? It has to be less than 10 percent of the time.
The core concepts still apply, even if we are in nickel a lot. I would expect 4-2-5 MLB technique to be a little different under Pelini than 4-2-5 or 3-3-5 MLB technique under Aranda.
0
Posted on 12/3/20 at 10:51 pm to SammyTiger
Do you think it has anything to do with those players being in the same system for years.
These players are young, in a new system, and some just arent that talented
These players are young, in a new system, and some just arent that talented
Posted on 12/4/20 at 2:25 am to abellsujr
quote:
Thats not really the point. The point is that they are publicly disagreeing with each other. It’s embarrassing and shows they’re not on the same page.
They are more than disagreeing with one another. They, are each, trying to throw the other under the bus.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 4:03 am to Major Dutch Schaefer
More reason to shite can him
Posted on 12/4/20 at 7:18 am to El_chantajista
Great to see the head coach and DC not agreeing in public.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 7:29 am to jacksajester
Not a matter of trust... 17/19 new starters. And no spring practice... LB play clearly different.. defensive end play different... LSU has had trouble setting the edge whether it be 3/4 or 4/3 as long as I can remember. Our current DE crop is pretty light. Any way.
Coverage issues and very poor safety play as well.
Coverage issues and very poor safety play as well.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 8:13 am to Major Dutch Schaefer
I agree with pelini
If O was referring to pelini's statement, then what his dumb arse doesn't realize is that isn't WTF pelini is even talking about...Jesus we can't be that dumb on staff huh?
If O was referring to pelini's statement, then what his dumb arse doesn't realize is that isn't WTF pelini is even talking about...Jesus we can't be that dumb on staff huh?
This post was edited on 12/4/20 at 8:16 am
Posted on 12/4/20 at 8:48 am to misey94
quote:
you yourself have admitted that guys like Flott and Ward are playing their roles a year ahead of schedule. That’s because of an empty class, a transfer, and an opt out.
I mean look at the kids drafted, and the consistency.
You recruit year to year based on your roster. Not that the best DB in the state is going to be an assclown & have to transfer.
Or that Kary Vincent would opt out because of an unprecedented pandemic in the middle of football season.
quote:
Safety is the bigger issue in my opinio
Definitely a more recent thing but yes I could understand a complaint with keeping that cupboard full
Even so, you go from Jamal adams to Delpit & you sprinkle in Stevens, who is a stud when he can play his role.
Is the next stud on the roster...., I lean to no, so yea, I would say they’ve probably leaned too much on the studs they have had & got a little complacent
Posted on 12/4/20 at 9:12 am to Major Dutch Schaefer
It's December and the DC / HC are not on the same page. Are you fricking kidding me 
Posted on 12/4/20 at 9:14 am to Old Money
quote:
It's December and the DC / HC are not on the same page
Seems to be a common theme under O...
Posted on 12/4/20 at 9:38 am to Chimlim
Reading between the lines, it sounds like Orgeron pushed to conversion to 4/3 before Pelini thought the team was ready for it and the results show Pelini may have been right.
Pelini has taken a ton of criticism for the defenses performance and finally lets it be known, not in a abrasive way, that he didn't think the team had the horses to be in the 4/3. In a sense, Pelini was trying to save some face and go on record that the move was too quick and too abrupt.
Orgeron should have left it at that.
But he didn't, and he shot back publicly.
This will not help matters.
Pelini has taken a ton of criticism for the defenses performance and finally lets it be known, not in a abrasive way, that he didn't think the team had the horses to be in the 4/3. In a sense, Pelini was trying to save some face and go on record that the move was too quick and too abrupt.
Orgeron should have left it at that.
But he didn't, and he shot back publicly.
This will not help matters.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 10:02 am to nitwit
O gets this year and next year, thats it! He needs to start owning up to some of these mistakes.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 10:35 am to Mudminnow
Bo knows he's gone, O was hellbent on changing to a 4-3, Bo said players weren't ready, but O said do it anyway, I'm in charge... result = disaster on defense! Players weren't ready for a total shift in philosophy and easing into a transition... I say O is responsible for the disaster that took place, mainly because of no spring practice and lack of fall practice to make the transition!
Posted on 12/4/20 at 10:55 am to Major Dutch Schaefer
I think he means ENOUGH.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 12:33 pm to DeafVallyBatnR
Good thing we got rid of Ika.
I mean, it didn't matter, because he was so bad. Or at least that's what Lester Earl or some other brilliant human colonoscopy scope told me.
I mean, it didn't matter, because he was so bad. Or at least that's what Lester Earl or some other brilliant human colonoscopy scope told me.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 12:52 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Lester Earl
Help me out, Les. Nobody has addressed my question on when this quote from Bo was given. If it was this week, that’s a problem. If it was August, it’s much ado about nothing.
I totally get why O wanted to switch to the 4-3. I think it was 3-fold:
1) It’s more aggressive, allows DTs to shoot gaps without having to think as much, which will lead to more sacks, TFLs, forced fumbles, and likely interceptions. It theoretically will lead to more “explosive plays,” which, though it’s been around (Saban’s been saying it forever), has recently become a buzz term in CFB and the NFL.
2) I really think Aranda’s 3-4 made it harder for Ed to close on a few of the elite DTs and DEs he was after the last few years. That’s Ed’s specialty—I think he believes a great defense starts with a dominant DL—and he was frustrated that he put so much time and effort into developing and maintaining years-long relationships with these guys and their families, only to get 1 of 3 hats on their high school tables and watching them put on a different school’s on NSD
3) I think Ed truly loves to coach, to be hands-on. He knows he has to mostly go with the CEO philosophy and delegate almost everything, but he believes he has an expertise in coaching a 4-3 DL and wants to able to roll his sleeves up every now and then and scratch that itch. I don’t think he was able to do that with Aranda because his 3-4 was so philosophically different than the 4-3 Ed knows, that his expertise wasn’t very useful except to motivate. And he wanted to coach more, to teach.
2020 has fricked my sense of time up, so I’m not sure when Aranda left, or when we hired Pelini. And I’m not sure where were relative to COVID, either. But I think Ed knew this was the year to switch to the 4-3 if we were ever going to. For these reasons:
1) He had just come off not just a NC, but the greatest CFB season of all time. So he would never have as much capital as he would going into the 2020 season.
2) Every recent CFB champion except Bama and Clemson has not only lost a lot of guys early to the draft (you’re not winning NCs without some really good 3rd year guys). Not only is it what pushes the guys towards the top that may have teetering, like Clyde, or Fulton, or Queen, or Chiasson—those 4 probably would have left anyway, but I think their decision really became no decision at all with the NC.
But it also pushed some other mid-rounders like Phillips, Cushenberry, Charles, Moss, and maybe another guy or 2 that I’m not thinking of. Phillips had no business leaving in a normal year. Cushenberry is starting in Denver, but that’s hindsight, and I think he probably would have come back to try to get in the 1st round in normal year. Charles is another guy who could have put himself in a better position by coming back (his situation is different because he was another failed drug test from getting the boot, I believe). And I never thought for one second that with his injury history and after we won the NC, he was coming back. Maybe he does if don’t win. Hell, even Delpit may have come back if we hadn’t won, since playing hurt all year dropped him from top 10-15 to the 2nd round. Not to mention all the coaches looking to move up, move on, and get paid.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 12:56 pm to Hot Carl
So O knows all that and realizes that with the massive departures, we’re not gonna seriously challenge for the SEC or NC this year, so it’s the perfect time—considering his political capital—to switch to the defense he’s wanted the whole time. He had a great ‘20 class of DTs that can play immediately and be disruptive in a 4-3 and a few guys that can play DE early too. And, there are some studs in the upcoming ‘21 class that switching to the 4-3 would definitely help landing.
What he was not counting on and could not foresee, though, was:
1) Stingley getting banged up and not being able to play nearly at the level he did last year(which was crucial because the yin of the 4-3 creating big plays on defense makes you vulnerable to giving them up if you don’t have CBs that are good in man).
2) For whatever reason, the 2nd year DBs have not just not improved as much as most players do from their 1st to 2nd seasons, they seem to have not improved at all—have maybe even gotten worse. Which leaves the defense totally vulnerable to explosive plays of the DL can’t get to the quarterback
3) Brooks leaving, which was huge. He was absolutely gonna be 1 of the 3 LBs on the field in base and 1 of 2 to stay on the field when we’re in nickel or dime. And with his athletic ability, Pelini could have used him all over in a lot of the ways some of y’all thought he’d be using Stevens now. Brooks is a much better athlete than Stevens, who is a very good athlete himself, obviously. But he’s too heavy to really do anything but play LB—why that seems to be the one position he’s refused to play is beyond me.
4) COVID
A) opt-outs—We lost our best returning player and a top 3-4 guy from last year, the . reigning Biletnikoff winner, the best
WR in LSU history, coming off the best season in SEC history. And all that was the
same dude in Chase. We also lost our best returning DLineman in Shelvin—hell,
he was the best DL last year too if we’re calling Chiasson a LB. Lost our best nickel
corner and track star in Vincent, who could have been used multiple ways to prevent
so many explosive plays. Then we had the in-season opt-outs of Italian which hurt all
year, and Marshall, which is about to hurt. Thomas, Moore, Cherry—don’t know
about those guys
B) guys we were counting on to not only play, but start, coming back fat and out of . shape—Logan, Ferrell, Bradford, and Thomas
And then Myles goes down 4 games in and we’re left with only 2 true freshmen QBs on scholarship (this is on O and E’s recruiting). This is not to absolve O, E, Bo, or any of the other coaches. But I do think O thought we had the horses to go 8-4/9-3 while switching to the 4-3 he’d wanted. And thought he had built enough goodwill to get away with it and really challenge again for ‘21. He was wrong. Some was his fault, some wasn’t. But alas, here we are. We’ll see what he can do to right the ship for next year. Hanging on to this recruiting class is crucial.
What he was not counting on and could not foresee, though, was:
1) Stingley getting banged up and not being able to play nearly at the level he did last year(which was crucial because the yin of the 4-3 creating big plays on defense makes you vulnerable to giving them up if you don’t have CBs that are good in man).
2) For whatever reason, the 2nd year DBs have not just not improved as much as most players do from their 1st to 2nd seasons, they seem to have not improved at all—have maybe even gotten worse. Which leaves the defense totally vulnerable to explosive plays of the DL can’t get to the quarterback
3) Brooks leaving, which was huge. He was absolutely gonna be 1 of the 3 LBs on the field in base and 1 of 2 to stay on the field when we’re in nickel or dime. And with his athletic ability, Pelini could have used him all over in a lot of the ways some of y’all thought he’d be using Stevens now. Brooks is a much better athlete than Stevens, who is a very good athlete himself, obviously. But he’s too heavy to really do anything but play LB—why that seems to be the one position he’s refused to play is beyond me.
4) COVID
A) opt-outs—We lost our best returning player and a top 3-4 guy from last year, the . reigning Biletnikoff winner, the best
WR in LSU history, coming off the best season in SEC history. And all that was the
same dude in Chase. We also lost our best returning DLineman in Shelvin—hell,
he was the best DL last year too if we’re calling Chiasson a LB. Lost our best nickel
corner and track star in Vincent, who could have been used multiple ways to prevent
so many explosive plays. Then we had the in-season opt-outs of Italian which hurt all
year, and Marshall, which is about to hurt. Thomas, Moore, Cherry—don’t know
about those guys
B) guys we were counting on to not only play, but start, coming back fat and out of . shape—Logan, Ferrell, Bradford, and Thomas
And then Myles goes down 4 games in and we’re left with only 2 true freshmen QBs on scholarship (this is on O and E’s recruiting). This is not to absolve O, E, Bo, or any of the other coaches. But I do think O thought we had the horses to go 8-4/9-3 while switching to the 4-3 he’d wanted. And thought he had built enough goodwill to get away with it and really challenge again for ‘21. He was wrong. Some was his fault, some wasn’t. But alas, here we are. We’ll see what he can do to right the ship for next year. Hanging on to this recruiting class is crucial.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 5:20 pm to ramchallenge
I am so lucky I have discovered LSU football. I went to a high school where we were last in football. I went to college that had no football team (George Washington). I grew up as a Washington Redskin fan. Then they sold to Snyder and we went south.
I lost all fun for the game.
Then I met this beautiful girl who went to LSU and she showed me the way forward and made me an SEC and LSU fan.
I have been LSU fan for 8 years. Win or lose, I always watch. When football is not in season, I don't know what I am going to do.
I am LSU/ SEC football addict.
These days football is different. You can build winning teams by the transfer portal.
There are so many players who would fit great with our team.
If Bo doesn't think he has the right team, why doesn't he build it with Orgeron's help.
No one has to put anyone down in public.
I lost all fun for the game.
Then I met this beautiful girl who went to LSU and she showed me the way forward and made me an SEC and LSU fan.
I have been LSU fan for 8 years. Win or lose, I always watch. When football is not in season, I don't know what I am going to do.
I am LSU/ SEC football addict.
These days football is different. You can build winning teams by the transfer portal.
There are so many players who would fit great with our team.
If Bo doesn't think he has the right team, why doesn't he build it with Orgeron's help.
No one has to put anyone down in public.
Posted on 12/4/20 at 9:46 pm to Comic_Tiger
quote:
mean, it didn't matter, because he was so bad. Or at least that's what Lester Earl or some other brilliant human colonoscopy scope told me.
I never said he was bad.
He’s just a rotational DL that we’ll prob end up not crying over when it’s said & done
Posted on 12/5/20 at 10:06 am to Alt26
Good point.
Funny thing is, when Erickson came to Miami, he had the players teach him jJ's defense because it worked so well, he didn't want to change it.
Funny thing is, when Erickson came to Miami, he had the players teach him jJ's defense because it worked so well, he didn't want to change it.
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