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re: A nice Trip Down Memory Lane or How I Barely Survived Being Excoriated by SFP...
Posted on 5/20/20 at 1:29 pm to Y.A. Tittle
Posted on 5/20/20 at 1:29 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Yeah, my point really doesn't have anything to do with the "he had a vision all along narrative" - whatever the heck that might be. I would never argue that what happened in 2019 was his exact "vision." I do think, a lot of what was done in 2018 helped us get to that point, though.
Which is why it's hard for me to look back and somehow lament on it being a "lost season."
go back to the whole quote (and what I'm responding to)
quote:
if O wanted spread/RPO, there are a ton of guys he could have hired for 2017. if that was his vision in 2016, why wasn't it our reality in 2017?
the "waste" is that of a year of spread/RPO as O's vision
1
Posted on 5/20/20 at 1:34 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i'm only talking about his vision, not winning titles
Even the most ardent O critics have argued for results. Now you are arguing for "vision" over results.
Shouldn't we be glad he was able to "adapt" as you wanted to modify his "vision" and maximize his "results"?
You haven't moved the goal posts. You've torn them down and thrown them in the dumpster.
This post was edited on 5/20/20 at 1:36 pm
Posted on 5/20/20 at 1:35 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
quote:
if O wanted spread/RPO, there are a ton of guys he could have hired for 2017. if that was his vision in 2016, why wasn't it our reality in 2017?
the "waste" is that of a year of spread/RPO as O's vision
Looked to me like he was feeling things out, bringing different guys in (both coaching and player wise) to get to a point of consistency on both sides of the ball, and steadily improving each year, until he got a glorious season in his third year.
To me, that's what you want a coach to do. It seems sort of hard to expect everything would just be done perfectly from the start and there wouldn't be a speed bump here and there along the way. I surely don't see how you could say with any certainty it wouldn't have happened with any of the potential alternatives taking over what he did.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 1:39 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
To me, that's what you want a coach to do. It seems sort of hard to expect everything would just be done perfectly from the start and there wouldn't be a speed bump here and there along the way. I surely don't see how you could say with any certainty it wouldn't have happened with any of the potential alternatives taking over what he did.
it's more of O's OC choice than O as a HC
if he wanted a spread/RPO offense in 2017, there were PLENTY of options for OC
AND, he had the full knowledge of the roster from being a coach on the team for years, plus the argument was a quick transition and a few tweaks.
there was nothing to prevent him from going in that direction 2 years earlier than he did, IF that was actually his vision
Posted on 5/20/20 at 1:57 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
if he wanted a spread/RPO offense in 2017
I mean, I guess it's obvious he wasn't 100% all in on that notion from the get-go. Are we arguing, or is anyone asserting, he was? And that's the basis of what, if so?
Posted on 5/20/20 at 2:07 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Are we arguing, or is anyone asserting, he was? And that's the basis of what, if so?
the guy i replied to who said he sold Alleva on a vision that won it all in 2019
Posted on 5/20/20 at 2:16 pm to SlowFlowPro
I have no idea what that means or what you’re arguing. His “vision” from the get go specifically was to have an RPO-spread offense, which for whatever reason he didn’t implement it immediately, and BECAUSE OF THAT we can’t really say he’s successful yet? 
Posted on 5/20/20 at 2:26 pm to Mr. Hangover
quote:
Everything he says sounds exactly like a lawyer in courtroom
If the facts aren't on your side argue the law.
If the law isn't on your side argue the facts.
If neither is on your side bang on the table.
This post was edited on 5/20/20 at 2:27 pm
Posted on 5/20/20 at 2:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the guy i replied to who said he sold Alleva on a vision that won it all in 2019
Earlier in the thread you pointed to luck being the reason for 2019, specifically with Burrow. As great as Burrow was it required multiple variables for Burrow to be great. Who created the framework for his greatness? Brady? Munoz (who he brought to the Heisman ceremony)? Clyde who was the hero of the Bama game and was a big reason we don't falter vs Auburn? Moss who went the season without a drop? The Joe Moore top OL? Chase, Jefferson and Marshall?
One variable links all others together. Who could that be? Probably someone who won 3 different Top awards himself.
Oh, and the D did a nice job as well, especially in the final portion of the season.
Mike Greenberg sums it up well:
That's not luck. That is someone with the ability to take a lot of moving parts, get them working as a unit and achieving ultimate success.
Consider that LSU had 5 1st Rd draft picks. 4 were ranked .9003 (low 4 star - Burrow) and below.
Burrow - low 4 star
Jefferson - 2 star
Queen - low 4 star
Clyde - 3 star
That's maximizing your talent.
This post was edited on 5/20/20 at 2:56 pm
Posted on 5/20/20 at 2:56 pm to Y.A. Tittle
i said earlier there are 2 arguments being intertwinced, but there are really 3
1. was hiring O a good decision in 2016?
2. is O a great/elite coach in 2020?
3. did O, in 2016, have a vision of LSU that he implemented to win the title in 2019?
i was specifically responding to #3 b/c it's a very, very stupid argument (yet people were making it). that argument is essentially saying O wanted a spread/RPO all along but intentionally chose not to hire OCs who ran it...for 2 years in a row...with 2 opportunities to hire OCs
now i think you and i believe this is silly and O learned he fricked up majorly TWICE in terms of offense. 3rd time was a charm. i gave him credit for realizing his failures and making changes. i also said he was insulated from this on defense entirely and now he's getting to implement his preferred D and his prints are on our style, so we will have to see how that works out.
i just don't think people are giving Joe Burrow enough of the credit in this whole situation. he was an already-developed QB with #1 pick/Heisman potential, who, as you said, had TWO year of IMMEDIATE eligibility. we were on the thinnest ice at QB in 2018 and it was an absolute savior moment. i just wish we would have had a real offense in 2018 to give him 2 years of elite play here
1. was hiring O a good decision in 2016?
2. is O a great/elite coach in 2020?
3. did O, in 2016, have a vision of LSU that he implemented to win the title in 2019?
i was specifically responding to #3 b/c it's a very, very stupid argument (yet people were making it). that argument is essentially saying O wanted a spread/RPO all along but intentionally chose not to hire OCs who ran it...for 2 years in a row...with 2 opportunities to hire OCs
now i think you and i believe this is silly and O learned he fricked up majorly TWICE in terms of offense. 3rd time was a charm. i gave him credit for realizing his failures and making changes. i also said he was insulated from this on defense entirely and now he's getting to implement his preferred D and his prints are on our style, so we will have to see how that works out.
i just don't think people are giving Joe Burrow enough of the credit in this whole situation. he was an already-developed QB with #1 pick/Heisman potential, who, as you said, had TWO year of IMMEDIATE eligibility. we were on the thinnest ice at QB in 2018 and it was an absolute savior moment. i just wish we would have had a real offense in 2018 to give him 2 years of elite play here
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:02 pm to BayouCowboy
quote:
Earlier in the thread you pointed to luck being the reason for 2019, specifically with Burrow.
if you don't think having an already-developed QB who has #1 pick/Heisman potential fall into your lap is luck, then you are Oklahoma
quote:
As great as Burrow was it required multiple variables for Burrow to be great.
and this is why i referenced it being sad that his 2018 was somewhat wasted by a bad offense and bad coaching
there were plenty of spread/RPO options for OC in 2017 and 2018. why did it take 2 years to get there? this isn't the "vision" argument this is a major criticism on O. what the frick was he doing dicking around for so long?
this isn't O-specific. i criticized the hell out of Miles for this for over a decade. i criticized Kirby Smart for being a big pussy in the same manner in this thread
you know who ain't a pussy about overhauling offense every couple of years and installing a new system in a single offseason? the short guy we play every year who wins a natty more often than not. we have to be better than that guy, and O knew that in 2016 when he was lobbying for the job.
This post was edited on 5/20/20 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:08 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
what the frick was he doing dicking around for so long?
That 2018 offseason will always be strange to me looking back. Still can’t figure out why O hated Canada, having LSU pay a settlement to let him go, and promotes the TE coach of all people to OC. That same OC now has someone who is paid $800,000 a year to be by his side.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:10 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
is O a great/elite coach in 2020?
LSU head coach Ed Orgeron was named the winner of the 2019 Paul "Bear" Bryant Coach of the Year Award. Swinney won the award last season and three of the past four years. Orgeron is the first SEC coach to take home the honor since Gus Malzahn in 2013. It's one of several national coach of the year awards that Orgeron has received for the 2019 season. He also won the Home Depot Coach of the Year, the Eddie Robinson Coach of the Year and the Walter Camp Coach of the Year.
quote:
i just don't think people are giving Joe Burrow enough of the credit in this whole situation. he was an already-developed QB with #1 pick/Heisman potential, who, as you said, had TWO year of IMMEDIATE eligibility. we were on the thinnest ice at QB in 2018 and it was an absolute savior moment. i just wish we would have had a real offense in 2018 to give him 2 years of elite play here
So he had Heisman potential but was riding the pine at Ohio St. He was already developed but didn't set the world on fire in 2018. He's not getting enough credit, but required a very good system and some damn good players around him to be great.
I'm as big a fan of Joey B as anyone. I think he is going to do great in the NFL. The obvious issue is you are using his success to degrade what O has done rather than realizing it's the sum of the parts and that's intellectually dishonest.
I'm confident in saying that if Burrow goes to any other program, Bama and Clemson included, he doesn't mirror the success he had here.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:11 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
you know who ain't a pussy about overhauling offense every couple of years and installing a new system in a single offseason?
The thing is, if you're waiting for your offense to be good in a few years when "your players learn the system" it's always going to suck because defensive coordinators are smarter at football than college players.
So you have to be able to install and hit the ground running.
ETA: And Kirby Smart is exactly what people complained about Miles being.
This post was edited on 5/20/20 at 3:12 pm
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:13 pm to c on z
that offseason was chaos
Aranda flexed and became the highest paid assistant in all of football (rumors say this was largely in response to beef with Canada)
then he hired Bill Busch
then O scrambled to hire a new OC and went with...our TEs coach (who i love and have respect for but was in no way a good OC candidate for a team like LSU, which was proven a year later when we had to hire a co-OC to overhaul everything we did on offense and our entire philosophy)
then a super stud QB who is immediately eligible and who has been coached for 3 years by one of the best offensive staffs in the country comes available?
insane twists and turns which, until Burrow, was leading to collapse on the field that year
Aranda flexed and became the highest paid assistant in all of football (rumors say this was largely in response to beef with Canada)
then he hired Bill Busch
then O scrambled to hire a new OC and went with...our TEs coach (who i love and have respect for but was in no way a good OC candidate for a team like LSU, which was proven a year later when we had to hire a co-OC to overhaul everything we did on offense and our entire philosophy)
then a super stud QB who is immediately eligible and who has been coached for 3 years by one of the best offensive staffs in the country comes available?
insane twists and turns which, until Burrow, was leading to collapse on the field that year
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:15 pm to ProjectP2294
quote:
The thing is, if you're waiting for your offense to be good in a few years when "your players learn the system" it's always going to suck because defensive coordinators are smarter at football than college players.
So you have to be able to install and hit the ground running.
oh 100%
that's why the Leach air raid revolutionized passing offenses in football (NFL and CFB) and the spread option basically created a new era of football. the greatest part about those offenses is that they're incredibly simple and can be installed in one offseason
LSU fans have just been so primed for dinosaur ball they think RPOs are new. we played an RPO team in 2011
quote:
ETA: And Kirby Smart is exactly what people complained about Miles being.
last year somebody on here called him les miles out of the shotgun, which is bow-worthy
This post was edited on 5/20/20 at 3:16 pm
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:18 pm to BayouCowboy
quote:
So he had Heisman potential but was riding the pine at Ohio St.
behind a heisman finalist who went early in the 1st round
Haskins also has a much more live arm than JB. don't act like Burrow was beaten out by Justin McMillan
quote:
He was already developed but didn't set the world on fire in 2018.
that's how bad our offensive system was in 2018. it held back Joe fricking Burrow. THAT is bad
quote:
I'm confident in saying that if Burrow goes to any other program, Bama and Clemson included, he doesn't mirror the success he had here.
you're crazy
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:20 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
now i think you and i believe this is silly and O learned he fricked up majorly TWICE in terms of offense. 3rd time was a charm. i gave him credit for realizing his failures and making changes. i also said he was insulated from this on defense entirely and now he's getting to implement his preferred D and his prints are on our style, so we will have to see how that works out.
I guess this is where you and I differ, though. I don't see 2018, or even 2017, as O having "fricked up majorly."
I accept that there's a lot of moving parts involved in taking over a program that had been in some degree of turmoil for several years.
I certainly don't take the position that he wanted Spread-RPO from the outset. I think he wanted to change the offense and it took him two seasons to find his way here in doing so. I have a hard time seeing that as a knock on a new coach in a program. He finally landed on the Spread-RPO and here we are.
Much credit is certainly due to Burrow and Brady, but I just tend to look at 2018 as a necessary step in Burrow's development, and his supporting cast, more than as a "wasted" season - and I don't mean that as any knock on him at all.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:22 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
you're crazy
So you think Burrow has 60 TDs playing for Bama or Clemson?
Trevor Lawrence is the highest rated QB since 247 rankings began. Where's his 60 TD season?
Posted on 5/20/20 at 3:23 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Much credit is certainly due to Burrow and Brady, but I just tend to look at 2018 as a necessary step in Burrow's development, and his supporting cast, more than as a "wasted" season - and I don't mean that as any knock on him at all.
i think if we had hired, say, Graham Harrell, we'd have seen a much better offense in 2018 and wouldn't have had to sacrifice much for 2019
i just don't believe we had to be bad on offense in 2018 for our offense to be amazing in 2019
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