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re: Battery power will NEVER do what Hydrogen can
Posted on 6/5/21 at 2:39 pm to Limitlesstigers
Posted on 6/5/21 at 2:39 pm to Limitlesstigers
Chemistry is fascinating.Takes some smart people to figure all this out.
0
Posted on 6/5/21 at 2:41 pm to Unobtanium
quote:So to be most efficient here, we would have to use the power while there is demand and only store the excess, correct? And do we know whether hydrogen is a more efficient storage medium than batteries? Seem like a complex calculation. We need to know how much energy is embodied in the battery packs and related infrastructure compared to the energy embodied in electrolysis and hydrogen storage/transport infrastructure. Plus all of the peripheral support infrastructure required for each. Seems like batteries have the upper hand here since we already have grids for cheap and efficient transport.
only proves my point that hydrogen is an energy storage medium (as opposed to a traditional fuel).
Now if you want to take all of the wind turbines and solar panel farms currently connected to the power grid and use that intermittent energy to electrolyze water to make hydrogen, I'd be all for that (making hay while the sun shines so to speak).
Posted on 6/5/21 at 2:46 pm to Unobtanium
quote:
One question - where will all of this hydrogen come from?
Exactly, few people understand that hydrogen is not a source of energy, it is a “carrier” of energy. The energy provided by hydrogen is going to be less than what was required to separate the hydrogen out of other compounds.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 3:38 pm to EA6B
The plant I am in uses hydrogen to run all of our lifts and material handlers. Refill time is like 60 seconds for a full ten hours.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 3:51 pm to Korkstand
It's no so much efficiency as making use of solar/wind power when it's available and getting it off the grid, making room for more reliable power sources (my first choice is nuclear, warts and all).
In the video linked above, hydrogen fuel cells are ~60% efficient while batteries are 90+%. Someone else can look up the figures on how much energy goes into producing H2 versus how much you get out, but I suspect it's not a very favorable ratio.
If it's a given that we're going to move away from gasoline/diesel, then battery power is probably the least worst option IMO. Still, that will take major expansion and investments in the power grid, but so did oil & gas, the first generation electrical grid, telephone and Internet.
Reproducing the 'miracle' of liquid fuels, with their abundance, high energy density, ease of transport and storage is a monumental task. I look forward to seeing what technologies pop up to take their place, in part or whole.
In the video linked above, hydrogen fuel cells are ~60% efficient while batteries are 90+%. Someone else can look up the figures on how much energy goes into producing H2 versus how much you get out, but I suspect it's not a very favorable ratio.
If it's a given that we're going to move away from gasoline/diesel, then battery power is probably the least worst option IMO. Still, that will take major expansion and investments in the power grid, but so did oil & gas, the first generation electrical grid, telephone and Internet.
Reproducing the 'miracle' of liquid fuels, with their abundance, high energy density, ease of transport and storage is a monumental task. I look forward to seeing what technologies pop up to take their place, in part or whole.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 4:44 pm to antibarner
All the Worlds Lithium is owned by China.
Hydrogen is everywhere.
Therefore the U.S. government will push electric down our throats.
Hydrogen is everywhere.
Therefore the U.S. government will push electric down our throats.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 4:48 pm to bird35
How long before we all have these?
Posted on 6/5/21 at 5:30 pm to Unobtanium
quote:
Reproducing the 'miracle' of liquid fuels, with their abundance, high energy density, ease of transport and storage is a monumental task. I look forward to seeing what technologies pop up to take their place, in part or whole.
You can electrolysis CO2 into methane or syngas and run a FT process. Carbon neutral gasoline.
Of course, doing that to a large scale is a whole different animal.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 5:40 pm to racknreel
quote:
The only way to make hydrogen truly green is to break a water molecule instead. 2 H2O -> 2 H2 + O2 Using wind, solar, or nuclear energy to do this
Partly true. You can utilize carbon capture when using methane to sequester the excess carbon. Now this only partially makes the use of methane green since you still have to produce the methane. As for energy to break the water molecule, you could utilize geothermal energy. This is where I think some of the oil and gas companies could pívot and adopt hydrogen fuel cell technology since they would have expertise in both producing methane and building injector facilites as well as working with a company to develop a geothermal operation.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 6:42 pm to antibarner
So you mean natural gas?
Posted on 6/5/21 at 6:59 pm to Unobtanium
quote:
And if it takes more energy to produce via other means (e.g. electrolysis of water) than it produces as a fuel, then it's just a storage medium.
This.
Hydrogen fuel cells are not really an alternative fuel source - more of an alternative battery design. This might be a bit of an oversimplification, but it’s basically analogous to recharging by refilling the battery reagents every time a battery dies vs. using another electrical current to recharge it.
So one one hand you’re burning natural gas to create steam, using that steam to drive a turbine and create electricity, transmitting that electricity to the end-user over the power grid, and then using it to charge a battery.
On the other, you’re also burning natural gas to create steam. Then you’re mixing that steam with more natural gas in a reformer to produce hydrogen gas and CO2. Then transporting that hydrogen gas to a station to be loaded into fuel cells, where it can generate electricity.
Combined cycle gas turbine generators have efficiencies in the 50-60% range, and Li-ion batteries have charge/discharge efficiencies in the 80-90% range. So combined, that’s 40-54% energy efficiency for rechargeable batteries.
Steam methane reformers are anywhere from 65-75% efficiency, and fuel cells are 40-60% efficiency. Combined, that’s 26-45% energy efficiency for fuel cells.
That is, of course, without counting distribution losses which are considerably higher for hydrogen gas vs. electricity.
It’s also not counting the actual battery manufacturing process, which is probably the most significant drawback of Li-ion batteries. Both are considerably more efficient than traditional IC engines.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 7:51 pm to lostinbr
LINK
Technology advances and answers will be found.
LINK
quote:
Many organisations see a real future for ammonia as a fuel. As an energy source, ammonia has nine times the energy of lithium-ion batteries and is 1.8 times more energy-dense than liquid hydrogen, and ammonia is easier to transport than liquid hydrogen.
Technology advances and answers will be found.
LINK
quote:
Today’s crisis is climate change. This time, ammonia could come to the rescue by capturing, storing, and shipping hydrogen for use in emission-free fuel cells and turbines. Efforts are also underway to combust ammonia directly in power plants and ship engines.
This post was edited on 6/5/21 at 8:04 pm
Posted on 6/5/21 at 8:17 pm to antibarner
quote:
Technology advances and answers will be found.
Ammonia might end up being adopted instead of hydrogen for applications where hydrogen makes more sense than rechargeable batteries. The most obvious of which is marine transportation.
But when comparing fuel cells to rechargeable batteries, ammonia has the same efficiency disadvantage as hydrogen - ammonia production is inherently less efficient than hydrogen production, because hydrogen is used to produce ammonia.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 9:05 pm to lostinbr
Aircraft may go that route too(hydrogen) because of emissions.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 9:10 pm to antibarner
Most ICE engines can run on hydrogen, it is just it beats them to death in a short amount of time, and there is also the issue of producing hydrogen on a scale to power cars.
I love the technology, but I think hybrid plug ins should be the focus. Cheaper to operate than a traditional stand alon ICE car, you don't need a huge battery and the ranges are very good. Look at the Rav4 prime. 302 hp, AWD, 600+ mile rage, 40+ mile electric only range.
I love the technology, but I think hybrid plug ins should be the focus. Cheaper to operate than a traditional stand alon ICE car, you don't need a huge battery and the ranges are very good. Look at the Rav4 prime. 302 hp, AWD, 600+ mile rage, 40+ mile electric only range.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 10:42 pm to Unobtanium
I’m no chemist, but I bet if you figured a cheap way to separate H2O you could end up with a metric shite pile of it
Posted on 6/5/21 at 10:47 pm to Slevin7
Getting the hydrogen isn't the hard part.
It's storage and that it's flammable as extremely dry balls.
It's storage and that it's flammable as extremely dry balls.
Posted on 6/5/21 at 10:59 pm to antibarner
Hydrogen has to be more pure than pipeline grade for fuel cells, it needs to be crypgenically purified like air goes through an air separation plant. Then the molecules are far apart so actual energy density is bad unless highly compressed. A few things about hydrogen compressors, there must be distance pieces. temperature must remain below 300 Deg F, and a nitrogen purges must be kept as it ignites when exposed to air.
May aw well go CNG, as more cost effective
May aw well go CNG, as more cost effective
Posted on 6/5/21 at 11:02 pm to thejudge
Nah dude, it is used as boiler fuel, not vented in any chlor alkali plant that I've ever been in
Posted on 6/5/21 at 11:03 pm to Woodlands Tigah
I have some unused hydrogen compressors that were for a fueling station investment by morons from California.
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