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re: Stunning Admission By Renowned Atheist; Decline of Christianity is Hurting Society
Posted on 11/7/19 at 11:39 pm to Perfect Circle
Posted on 11/7/19 at 11:39 pm to Perfect Circle
On the morals debate and where atheist get limits not to kill or otherwise hurt someone from. I get mine from a consideration, a rational consideration that my actions have consequences to other people. It comes from an understanding that my actions have an effect on those people around me and theirs have an effect on me. Honestly that is how I determine for myself what is moral. If we are going to live cooperatively and share this space we all have to recognize that our freedom to swing our arms ends at our fellow mans face.
The basic tenets of law weren't created by the bible's commandments. They existed in culture years before the existence of a Bible and they existed in places with no exposure to Christianity.
The basic tenets of law weren't created by the bible's commandments. They existed in culture years before the existence of a Bible and they existed in places with no exposure to Christianity.
This post was edited on 11/7/19 at 11:46 pm
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Posted on 11/7/19 at 11:40 pm to WildManGoose
quote:It's not simply the laws or the similarity to God's law, but the basis for those laws that I'm talking about. Atheists can believe it's wrong to murder but what is their basis for believing that? The Christian has a basis that is found in God's moral law and that humans have inherent value and dignity by being made in the image of God.
Yet, their laws were similar to the "summary of God's moral law". As were the laws of most non-Abrahamic religious civilizations, like the Hittites.
quote:Agreed. Cain was punished for murdering his brother, long before Moses entered the scene.
Thou Shalt Not Kill wasn't invented with the 10 commandments.
quote:Yes, and my worldview can explain it as humans being made in the image of God, knowing instinctively the moral law of God because it is written on our hearts. Our sin perverts it, but it's there all the same.
Shintoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism display the same general moral attitudes of Christianity yet developed independently.
quote:Again, it's not the tenants of Christianity taught to the masses that allow people to know right from wrong independently from one another but the fact that all people are image-bearers programmed to be moral beings that have a sense of true morality due to how we've been created.
So to make a point, the commonality of basic moral principles between independent religions and societies throughout human history lead me to the conclusion that morality is a social and psychological construct not dependent on Christianity. Japan's population is only 1.5% Christian and it's not exactly anarchy over there.
Posted on 11/7/19 at 11:40 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You can say whatever you like but it's nothing more then subjective opinion.
Your entire worldview is subjective, and worse, it isn't even based on an opinion formed from logic and reason. It's based on nothing but "I believe."
Posted on 11/7/19 at 11:43 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
It's based on nothing but "I believe."
Without that belief, you have nothing but a relativistic hell hole.
This post was edited on 11/7/19 at 11:44 pm
Posted on 11/7/19 at 11:45 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Without that belief, you have nothing but a relativistic hell hole.
You might need magic man in the sky to tell you not to be a piece of shite, but we aren't all that weak.
Posted on 11/7/19 at 11:54 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
I think this thread might be proving what Dawkins was trying to convey. Apparently some people do need to believe in sky daddy to not hurt other people.
Whether sky daddy is real or not is irrelevant.
Whether sky daddy is real or not is irrelevant.
This post was edited on 11/7/19 at 11:55 pm
Posted on 11/8/19 at 12:02 am to WildManGoose
quote:
Shintoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism display the same general moral attitudes of Christianity yet developed independently.
Good God, when will this fallacy ever die?
Whether you believe in creation or evolution, man descended from an original source. As man migrated across the planet, his skin color, physical traits, language, and even religion "evolved" from its original source
Religions just didn't pop into existence from nowhere. They were passed down, and then modified to fit the geography and culture of those migrating. So the basic tenets of any religion came from a single source. They NEVER developed independently. Even paganism
And anthropologists have all agreed that the source of all things language, culture, farming, domestication of animals, metallurgy, etc all came from somewhere in Turkey. Guess what, so did all the worlds religions
For example, Buddism - founded around 500 BC. The Mahapadana Sutta and Achariyabhuta Sutta both recount miraculous events surrounding Gautama's birth, such as the bodhisattva's descent from the Tu?ita Heaven into his mother Maya's womb (wow, oddly familiar).
He was born in Davdaha, to the leader of the Shakya peoples and his mother was named for a Vedic goddess
Vedic - founded around 1500 BC. It was "a syncretic mixture of old Central Asian and new Indo-European elements" which borrowed "distinctive religious beliefs and practices". And also descendants of the Kurgans
Kurgans - founded in the Caucus mountains of Russia, Yeah that's right Buddha descended from the Caucasians, who went on to found a boatload of Christian religions. So from Abraham, you can get to any religion by following his lineage
Posted on 11/8/19 at 12:04 am to Strophie
quote:I'm glad you admit it, even though it's an irrational position to take, it's at least consistent with your worldview.
Yes, that's correct. This is what I keep saying to you, and you seem to keep thinking I'm denying or dancing around this point. This is literally my position; there is no "ultimate standard."
quote:Anyone can make whatever judgements they like but without an objective moral foundation, any judgements are nothing but arbitrary opinions, as you affirmed. Opinions are just that, and your society of rocky road lovers have no moral authority to condemn chocolate lovers or anyone else. Not liking something doesn't mean that something is immoral, and while you can claim a judgement, that doesn't mean your judgement is rational. My point is that without an objective moral standard, there is no rational basis for making moral judgements. Sure, you can make them, but it would be irrational to do so. The Christian worldview provides a rational basis for making moral judgements.
Again, you are reaffirming the exact position I'm taking. I can make judgements, and do, but I have no objective ground that I'm claiming to be standing on. As I said, however, that doesn't preclude me from making those judgements. To expound on your analogy, me joining a community of Rocky Road lovers who find chocolate lovers abhorant doesn't mean we hold some moral ultimate truth about the qualities of the two flavors. But it does mean that, in our society, the generally accepted moral framework dictates that a preference for chocolate is morally repugnant. That may not be the case in a different society - and there is literally nothing inherently "wrong" with that on some fundamental, base level.
quote:Again, I'm glad you admit as much, but it's irrational. If you want to argue for irrationality, you'll have a hard time convincing people who value rationality.
Yup. And morality is arbitrary, so that squares with my argument.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 12:04 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I'm not in the same boat
You're correct, not only can you not objectively say that God would be immoral for commanding that someone go slaughter a school, you can't even really subjectively say he's wrong either since you're bound by God's objective moral standards you yourself have accepted.
At least when someone goes on a school shooting I'm allowed to have my own opinion on the matter. You're bound both objectively and subjectively.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 12:08 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:
I always appreciate your posts on morality.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 12:10 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
but we aren't all that weak.
No... Weakness defines you, weakness and envy.
That is your curse.
This post was edited on 11/8/19 at 12:11 am
Posted on 11/8/19 at 12:19 am to Azkiger
quote:Considering God doesn't directly command such activities any longer, if someone were to shoot up a school, I'd be objectively correct to condemn such a action as a violation of God's moral law. While God can execute law-breakers and even delegate such authority to others, there has to be a clear directive for such a thing, and since God doesn't work that way any longer (outside of the normal means of the civil magistrate, that is), I can condemn such an action with confidence.
You're correct, not only can you not objectively say that God would be immoral for commanding that someone go slaughter a school, you can't even really subjectively say he's wrong either since you're bound by God's objective moral standards you yourself have accepted.
At least when someone goes on a school shooting I'm allowed to have my own opinion on the matter. You're bound both objectively and subjectively.
You, on the other hand, can only look on with moral indifference, regardless of how you feel about it.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 12:22 am to Perfect Circle
I blame Footloose and the PMRC for the decline....
That and televangelists...
ETA....the hippies too. They took Crowley’s “Do what thou wilt” and ran with it as fast as their earth shoes could take them...
That and televangelists...
ETA....the hippies too. They took Crowley’s “Do what thou wilt” and ran with it as fast as their earth shoes could take them...
This post was edited on 11/8/19 at 12:27 am
Posted on 11/8/19 at 4:56 am to Lima Whiskey
Those are words with no meaning.
You've demonstrated and admitted that you need authority to not be a scumbag.
That makes you weak.
You've demonstrated and admitted that you need authority to not be a scumbag.
That makes you weak.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 5:00 am to Jon Ham
Fear of The Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 5:04 am to Jon Ham
quote:
re you implying you don’t murder people people because an invisible entity is watching and judging you?
If there is no afterlife then, eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die
Posted on 11/8/19 at 5:57 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:Which would be far less annoying if he didn't pretend otherwise.
Your entire worldview is subjective, and worse, it isn't even based on an opinion formed from logic and reason. It's based on nothing but "I believe."
I'm perfectly fine with "I believe".
But, the fricking 1000 word essays of bull shite that could just as well be "I believe" written 500 times are pure idiocy.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 5:59 am to cave canem
quote:
This and OP you stretched what the man said to the point of breaking to fit your narrative but go ahead if it makes you feel better.
The point of the OP was that atheists have to truthfully admit that Christianity is a net positive for society.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 6:02 am to Dawgfanman
quote:
Fear of The Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.
My experience is those who fear the Lord fear nothing else, and those who don't fear the Lord fear everything else.
Posted on 11/8/19 at 6:04 am to Perfect Circle
quote:
The point of the OP was that atheists have to truthfully admit that Christianity is a net positive for society.
I tend to agree on this point although, I don't think I would restrict it to Christianity. But, the point is sound nevertheless.
Where it went off the rails is when we have morons in here who think that if you don't believe, you can no longer function and make valid assessments regarding the world around you.
While I acknowledge that on a societal level, moral framework has been and likely always will be a net positive, on an individual level, it doesn't follow that nothing prevents me from being a murderous a-hole.
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