re: Stunning Admission By Renowned Atheist; Decline of Christianity is Hurting Society

Dawkins is expecting society to unravel and deteriorate very quickly should our country's moral foundation continue to erode. Looking at the state of things it's kind of hard to argue.

Sure, and that’s because we’re conditioned to do so. We’re all taught things are “right” or “wrong” from a very young age and our perception naturally comes to see these concepts as universal. In the context of human history that’s obviously nonsense but it makes sense within our small bubbles of influence.

Given enough time and consistency I can confer essentially any moral truth I wish onto a toddler. I can raise a child in an isolated forest cabin to believe that only by eating other humans can we keep the sun from exploding and, theoretically, keep them convinced of that their entire lives. They would never think twice about killing other people.

Did this moron finally read Kant for the first time in his 50s and acts like it’s a big revelation?

Any student of philosophy who has digested much of anything before the 20th century would have come to the same conclusion long ago. I did at age 14.

quote:

---

l law-giver.

The point of discussing objectivity vs. subjectivity in terms of morality is to show that if we rely on ourselves as human beings to determine morality, there cannot be an objective basis to condemn one version of morality and praise another; we would just have various moral preferences that we like over others.

---

Great explanation. You’re tightening the screws of moral relativism down and atheists get very uncomfortable when their beliefs of morality are eventually proven to be seriously flawed. If you work really hard sometimes you can get an atheist to admit they don’t want a Creator/God to hold them accountable for their morality. You’ll even get atheists to admit if God revealed himself to them they would still reject him because God is immoral and unloving for subjecting them to the unpleasant circumstances of His creation. These same atheists will tell you they have the right and duty to discipline their own child so the child understands how to conduct themselves in a responsible manner.....yet they fail to understand that discipline and ultimately morality is exactly what the Father has offered them and the world through His Commandments, His Word and His Truth!

quote:

---

It's a statement of truth.

---

only if you accept the premise, that's the point.

quote:

---

You're not quite understanding what "objective" means in terms of morality. Objectivity is something universal derived from outside of our particular human minds, like laws of logic. Subjectivity is something particular to ourselves, such as our feelings or personal desires.

---

actually, i think you are not grasping what "objective" means. or at least how the term can refer to precepts outside of the realm of your religious worldview. because act utilitarianism and the categorical imperative are both morally objective.

quote:

---

My premise makes the concept of moral absolutes intelligible and coherent with the world we live in. Utilitarianism doesn't and can't.

---

utilitarianism, and the categorical imperative, which i mentioned earlier both do and can. you're still not really getting what "objective" means. no sweat.

quote:

---

Morality as preference is the natural result of morality outside of the Biblical God, which is what I said in the beginning. While you can espouse that belief, you don't live that way; no one does. In our every day lives, we live as if moral absolutes exist, yet can't justify that notion outside of God.

---

what macantyre is saying is that the intellectual premise is a matter of preference, and the morality derives from that premise. that's been my point all along. again, no sweat. you seem like a smart guy, so you will transcend this kind of thinking soon, god willing : )

quote:

---

No, it's correct. The logical conclusion of moral subjectivity is that there is no actual moral or immoral behavior; there is just what happens in this natural world, like a lion killing and eating a zebra.

---

Since taste is subjective, we can't comment on how ice cream tastes better than dog shite?

Subjectivity isn't nearly as hopeless as you paint it to be.

Also, maybe I missed it, but how are you not in the same boat?

If God commands someone to kill slaughter a school, how can you say its wrong? While I cannot call a school shooting objectively wrong, you can't either if your God commands it. And seeing all the violence, genocide, and killing for petty reasons in the Bible you can't argue that there isn't a history of such things to point to when making this point.

quote:

---

And seeing all the violence, genocide, and killing for petty reasons in the Bible

---

Wrong book, Sherlock.

quote:

---

This is such a ridiculous talking point. Japan and South Korea are doing very well even without Christianity.

---

Japan is headed for extinction in another three or four generations.

30% of the population of South Korea is Christian, roughly the same as the United States.

quote:

---

Wrong book

---

Convenient.

I believe in reincarnation of spirit. But, I agree with what he said.

I follow some of the biblical beliefs of treating others how I want to be treated. Mainly because I feel that if everyone followed that belief, that society would be a lot calmer.

Right now, a large percentage of our society dehumanizes everyone else. When you start dehumanizing , it leads to beating up little kids, beating up women, molesting children, or physically attacking people just because of petty shite.