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re: Stunning Admission By Renowned Atheist; Decline of Christianity is Hurting Society
Posted on 11/9/19 at 10:11 am to Azkiger
Posted on 11/9/19 at 10:11 am to Azkiger
quote:
Theism = belief in a higher power.
A = without.
Atheism = without belief in a higher power
Yeah. I've been pointing this out on the board for years. I used to call myself an agnostic and then I realized that belief in God was binary. Either you do or you don't. If you're still thinking about it you don't.
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Posted on 11/9/19 at 10:15 am to FightnBobLafollette
quote:
Exploring isn’t the same thing a migrating.
Wow! How galactically embarrassing for you.
quote:
explore - investigate, study, or analyze, look into. Travel in or through an unfamiliar area in order to discover it.
Synonym: travel · journey · research
quote:
migrate - move to a new area in order to find better living conditions.
Synonym: travel · voyage · journey · trek
quote:
Christopher Columbus - Explorer who sailed in uncharted seas, greatly extending the knowledge of crossing the Atlantic and pave the way for the Spanish migration into the Americas.
quote:
Daniel Boone - Frontiersman whose extended hunting explorations led to him establishing the Wilderness Road. This trail was a principal route used by colonials to settle into Kentucky.
quote:
Viking exploration - The Vikings explored all over Europe and beyond in their quest for new lands to settle. Their continuous explorations allowed them to create a permanent settlement on Iceland, and built other new settlements in Greenland, North America, the British Isles, northwestern France, Russia and along the southeastern coast of the Baltic Sea.
quote:
Lewis & Clark - President Thomas Jefferson secretly asked the U.S. Congress to approve and fund an expedition. In July, the Louisiana Purchase was announced. This made the expedition even more important than before, as it now provided the opportunity to learn more about what lands could allow for new settlements.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 10:31 am to TopFlightSecurity
quote:
American Christians have done way more to contribute to the decline of Christian values than atheists could ever try to.
Though an atheist, I appreciate Jesus Christ as a man whose message was good for humanity. "Love your neighbor as yourself:" the message in this very short statement illustrates that humans are capable of transcending the limited awareness of our primate ancestors. Humans are aware of not only ourselves and our place relative to other humans living in close proximity but also aware that that our behavior impacts the behavior and well being of others.
The message forces us to confront that there is a purpose to our actions and the purpose accorded to our actions requires that we serve humanity as we serve ourselves. This must be true if we are to be both best for ourselves and best others. However, it's also difficult to practice because loving others as we love ourselves is often in direct conflict with our own self interest.
Whether you're a believer or non believer, the message is the same and shows that humans are unique in our ability to understand the context in which we live. Is this supernatural? Is being human devine? As an atheist, I would say no. I can't prove that it's not. It's a matter of faith for believer and non believer.
To your point of American Christians contributing to the decline of Christian values, I would say America has its share of assholes and hypocrites spread equally among both believers and non believers. However, atheists don't claim that christ's teaching were devine. Atheists don't accept that everything in christ's teaching is the authority for all human behavior. We're not the representatives of any religious dogma, hence any effect we may have on christian values is indirect and should be of no consequence to christians. Christians are the only people responsible for the state of christian values.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 10:34 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Those events happened in history for a specific purpose and there is no need for that any longer because the land was a means that God used to both physically separate His chosen people from the other nations...
It's interesting, you claimed that mass murder was rare yet there are so many instances of it one excuse can't cover all the instances.
David performed a peacetime census and God slaughtered 70,000 of "His chosen people" because of it. So mass murder wasn't just tied to the Hebrews fighting other pagan groups over land.
quote:
...as well as a physical sign that God keeps His promises.
And if God chose, tomorrow, to continue with these "physical signs" that he keeps his promises you aren't in any position to complain or critique. You can keep saying "He won't, He won't!", but you're just a lump of clay who doesn't know God's plan like he does.
quote:
So yes, I know that God wouldn’t command such things any longer because there is no reason for God to do so...
But you don't, though. You don't know that all of God's plans are highlighted in the Bible. Imagine how a Hebrew felt about God and their religion prior to Jesus and the supposed prophecy of Jesus. They'd be just as confident as you are now, yet things changed.
It's within your worldview that God can do whatever he wants. He's the author of life so he can take it. But, seeing where this discussion is going, you don't want to walk too far down that path because you understand that places you in the same boat as atheists.
This post was edited on 11/9/19 at 10:36 am
Posted on 11/9/19 at 10:38 am to League Champs
quote:
Wow! How galactically embarrassing for you.
Synonym: a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language, for example shut is a synonym of close.
Not all synonyms are exactly the same.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 1:59 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
For the Bible to be correct, we all once worshipped the same God. But due to cultural migrations his name has been changed, as well as the rituals in observing him. Heard of the trinity? 3 gods, yet the same? How long has that been around? A whole lot less time than it would have taken to go from El Shaddai to Buddha
You're beginning from a position that the bible is a legitimate, written history and making up a whack theory to justify your belief. We did not all worship the same God. Nothing you have said is supported in anyway by written record or archaeology. The old testament is a derivative of earlier works like the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is fictional.
quote:
my understanding of your intelligence
Based on your arguments, I imagine that's about like a hamster trying to understand chess.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 2:14 pm to League Champs
quote:
Vikings never left Europe for Greenland/Iceland/Americas. And Europeans never found America. And once they got here became too sedentary to move westward.
Okay, you think Viking/European exploration and colonization is the same as Neolithic migrations. No one is forcing you to embarrass yourself here.
quote:
And they would have migrated across the land bridge. Domesticated animals, agricultural abilities, trade systems and all.
That's exactly what they did...independent of other civilizations.
Posted on 11/9/19 at 3:15 pm to Azkiger
quote:I think you're mixing up some things here. I'm talking about God ordering humans to kill large numbers of other humans is a rare event in the Bible. God can strike dead as many as He wants, Himself, as He has the authority and right to do so.
It's interesting, you claimed that mass murder was rare yet there are so many instances of it one excuse can't cover all the instances.
quote:Like I said, you're mixing up humans killing humans with God destroying sinners.
David performed a peacetime census and God slaughtered 70,000 of "His chosen people" because of it. So mass murder wasn't just tied to the Hebrews fighting other pagan groups over land.
Yes, God judged Israel for rebelling against Him, and He used the sin of David to do it in the instance you provided, yet it was God, Himself, through an angel that God sent a pestilence that wiped out 70,000 people.
Like I said, God can do as He pleases with us. He can also use other people to judge those He sees fit, though it's only authorized in special instances and isn't normative, left to humans to judge for themselves.
quote:You're right that I wouldn't be in any position to complain against God who is morally pure and knows what is right, however I can certainly say that He won't command such a thing because, as I said, His revelation is complete and there is no more use for special signs or revelation from God for judgement or anything else. I'm not telling God what He can do, I'm telling you what God has revealed that He will and won't do through the scriptures.
And if God chose, tomorrow, to continue with these "physical signs" that he keeps his promises you aren't in any position to complain or critique. You can keep saying "He won't, He won't!", but you're just a lump of clay who doesn't know God's plan like he does.
quote:Not at all. See, the Jews were promised the Messiah, who was/is Jesus. Jesus was the fulfillment of all the old testament signs and shadows. He was the fulfillment of the sacrifices that were given to the Jews. There is no equivalent situation now to the OT Jews becuse they looked forward while we look back.
But you don't, though. You don't know that all of God's plans are highlighted in the Bible. Imagine how a Hebrew felt about God and their religion prior to Jesus and the supposed prophecy of Jesus. They'd be just as confident as you are now, yet things changed.
You seem to think there's more fulfillment that needs to be done that requires more revelation. God's plan is that--now that Christ has completed His mission on earth--the gospel will continue to be preached until all of God's elect are saved and Christ will return in Glory to judge the world. That's it, and that's enough by itself. The return of the King Jesus will result in more people being judged than any event in history, and that's the prerogative that lives with the only one with the authority to do that. We have no such authority to take lives unlawfully because people are made in God's image, not ours, and everyone belongs to Him.
quote:You're wrong that God can do whatever He wants in my worldview. He's limited by His own holy and righteous character. God can't lie, for instance, nor can He cease to be God.
It's within your worldview that God can do whatever he wants. He's the author of life so he can take it. But, seeing where this discussion is going, you don't want to walk too far down that path because you understand that places you in the same boat as atheists.
I'm certainly not in the same boat as the atheist and for many reasons. I have an objective basis for human dignity and worth. I have an objective basis for truth. I have an objective basis for morality and ethics. I have an objective basis to believe that tomorrow will be like today and that induction, mathematics, and logic are consistent and will not change. I've got an objective basis for meaning and obligation within this life. The atheist has none of that.
This post was edited on 11/9/19 at 11:06 pm
Posted on 11/9/19 at 3:17 pm to wfallstiger
quote:Amen to that. It's a big problem. We don't call sin what is is any more and seek to live holy lives out of thankfulness to God who saved us through Christ's sacrifice.
Because many members of the clergy have not truly experienced the good news and are unable to speak to it and have peddled that which you have described
Take on the form of godliness but deny its power
Posted on 11/9/19 at 3:28 pm to Bard
quote:We receive morality either subjectively from within ourselves, subjectively from without ourselves but from other people, or from an objective source.
Which is a subjective definition because experiencing morality can impact how one receives morality, even objective morality.
quote:God's moral law.
Give me an example of a moral absolute, something that comes from outside humanity.
quote:Interpretation is certainly subjective because it, too, comes from within human beings. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about how we interpret our moral standards, but where the moral standards come from.
I disagree. The hallmark of subjectivity is interpretation and that interpretation is built by experiences. The interpretation is what creates the subjectivity.
A moral standard that comes from my own mind is subjective. A moral standard that is imposed on me from outside my mind or other human minds is objective. This is why I was talking about origins or morality, not simply our experience of it.
I also think you might be wandering into the pool of subjective reality, where there are no absolute truths. That's, at least, how I'm interpreting what you're saying. It seems like you're saying our experience dictates reality rather than reality existing outside of our experiences.
quote:I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Objectivity and subjectivity are conflicting concepts. Objectivity doesn't exist on the far end of the subjective spectrum because we're not talking about a spectrum. Objectivity and subjectivity are black and white concepts.
And that's where the sticking point comes in. You're trying to make an objective observation over something that is inherently subjective. Objective morals can be reached subjectively because objectivity is the extreme end of the subjectivity spectrum.
An objective moral standard is one by definition if it comes from without and is not based on our own feelings, desires, or experiences. If each individual can have a different view of it, it's not objective.
quote:I don't know what you're trying to say here. I'm saying objectivity and subjectivity are black and white concepts, not shades of grey.
It's like saying you have a scale of greys but not allowing black or white (which are the necessary ingredients to make grey).
Posted on 11/9/19 at 4:06 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I also think you might be wandering into the pool of subjective reality, where there are no absolute truths. That's, at least, how I'm interpreting what you're saying. It seems like you're saying our experience dictates reality rather than reality existing outside of our experiences.
One of the dangers of this thinking, is that proponents no longer believe in truth, and they turn on society and attempt to dismantle it.
Criticism is healthy, but deconstructionist are unable to do anything else, because they do not believe in truth, they can not build anything.
This post was edited on 11/9/19 at 4:21 pm
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