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re: Whats the boards opinion of doe cutoff dates.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:55 pm to Ron Cheramie
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:55 pm to Ron Cheramie
quote:
dont see what it matters for deer to all be dropping fawns at the same time
Ill try and explain this so its understandable. I had 2 10 pts on camera in August. One was almost finished growing out while the other was barely at his G2. Biologist will tell you that the one that was in the early stages of growth was likely a late born fawn. He was also the last to shed his velvet. Did one shed his previous years in Feb and the other shed his in May? Did one get an advantage over spring growth vegetation while the other was trying to grow antlers with late summer vegetation?
I don't know the answers to this all but it goes with the line of thinking that you need to shoot the does that in November still have last years yearling tagging along.
Im not saying one is right or wrong because Im nowhere near an expert but its something to consider.
1
Posted on 12/14/18 at 12:58 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
it is based on the belief that a buck wasted 4 days during peek breading chasing and courting a doe that ends up dead
Do they feel bad for the buck? I'm having trouble understanding this one. Every doe in the woods is gonna get bred by something, eventually.
If I’m at a club with superior genetic and age structure, then yes, I want the mature bucks to pass their genes on down the line.
If I’m hunting the back forty behind granny’s house, then it probably isn’t a big deal
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:04 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
I am OK with harvest limits whether they are club / property imposed or state rules. I prefer to be able to kill them whenever I want though.
Alabama is talking about going back to Doe Seasons. I'd rather have limit on how many we can kill and be able to do so at any point in the season.
I believe that's what Florida is doing next season.
Alabama is talking about going back to Doe Seasons. I'd rather have limit on how many we can kill and be able to do so at any point in the season.
I believe that's what Florida is doing next season.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:06 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
Do they feel bad for the buck? I'm having trouble understanding this one. Every doe in the woods is gonna get bred by something, eventually.
Well you can look at dominant buck VS desirable buck. Studies have shown that does will actually seek out the best bucks. They aren't just sluts waiting on a dick. They want the one with the big rack and great genes. Chances are, your earliest bred does are gonna get bred by your best bucks ( based on the research). Also, if a buck has 3 hot does in a field, he will pick the best one. So you best deer are likely bred first. If you shoot those does after being bred ( you don't know if she is or not) then you possibly killed the cream of the crop. Sure, he'll just breed another but for the 4 days he was locked down with her, he wasted that time and a lesser quality buck way out getting a shot.
Understand im just playing devils advocate here and trying to think of the best ways to improve
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:19 pm to FrankDrebin
FILs club has a cut off of 12/15 for does. Their thinking is they don’t want people killing a bunch of does and chasing them off the fields during the rut. I understand the point but I like one other posters rule that each member needs to shoot a doe before a buck.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:25 pm to FrankDrebin
In my county we have until thanksgiving to shoot does. But, can shoot them in muzzleloader after new year. So yes, I take late season does if I don't fill my two tags in November.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:27 pm to Ron Cheramie
quote:
biologically it makes no difference whether you shoot one in October or the day before it gives birth it will not be having fawns that year
This.
The club should be more concerned about carrying capacity and buck to doe ratios than when a doe is shot. I've never understood wanting to leave does.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:30 pm to FelicianaTigerfan
quote:True, but like you pointed out, when you pull the trigger you have no clue if you are shooting a bred doe with a good bucks sperm already inside her, a bred doe with a shitty bucks sperm already inside her, an unbred doe thats about to take the dominated bucks dick, or an unbred doe thats about to take ol retarded bucks dick
They aren't just sluts waiting on a dick. They want the one with the big rack and great genes. Chances are, your earliest bred does are gonna get bred by your best bucks ( based on the research). Also, if a buck has 3 hot does in a field, he will pick the best one. So you best deer are likely bred first. If you shoot those does after being bred ( you don't know if she is or not) then you possibly killed the cream of the crop
Its all an unknown when the trigger is pulled so I am failing to see when shooting them matters from a biological herd standpoint.
This post was edited on 12/14/18 at 1:32 pm
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:31 pm to FelicianaTigerfan
quote:
Understand im just playing devils advocate here and trying to think of the best ways to improve
Point taken, I just think that all hinges on dominant and genetically superior being the same deer. I don’t think that’s really the case. Does don’t have a measuring tape or understand deductions. In most populations the genetics are gonna be pretty evenly distributed unless someone has shipped in genetics and wants to encourage that specific deer to breed every doe. Outside a pen I think that’s pissing in the wind.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:35 pm to fillmoregandt
quote:
I want the mature bucks to pass their genes on down the line.
That’s the issue, a 1.5 year old spike could have better genetics than the best buck you’ve seen. Unless you have a meticulous cull plan or are in a pen, the spikes are still going to breed some does.
To me it all comes back to ratio, no matter when you control it. If you believe it’s better to let mature bucks breed does then your first and only priority should be getting the buck to doe ratio down by any means necessary, not the time of year.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:43 pm to FrankDrebin
quote:
that doesn't make any sense as a doe taken before the date is obviously a does that can't breed.
This.
Push for a rule that does not allow any member to get more than 1 buck ahead of his doe count.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:44 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
Like I said, I’m proponent of a cutoff date more so for hunting pressure during the rut and not so much for biological reasons
Posted on 12/14/18 at 1:44 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:Good point.
That’s the issue, a 1.5 year old spike could have better genetics than the best buck you’ve seen. Unless you have a meticulous cull plan or are in a pen, the spikes are still going to breed some does.
Think of it in humans. In 2000, Grant Hill (think 10 point buck) was more mature and would look better at the time than Lebron james (think young spike or 4 point).
But lebron still had the better genetics to pass along.
This post was edited on 12/14/18 at 1:45 pm
Posted on 12/14/18 at 2:05 pm to FrankDrebin
quote:
Mississippi
I hunt in Mississippi and have heard some of the dumbest shite since moving here, Had a baw call me up and ask if I wanted the meat from a buck he killed. Said it stunk like hell, been rutting hard; meat wouldn’t be any good. I took it, grinded it up and invited over for burgers. Dude couldn’t believe how good it was.
Do the herd a favor and kill does. Several.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 2:07 pm to magicman534
quote:
like one other posters rule that each member needs to shoot a doe before a buck.
I wish we could adopt that rule. We have 25 members, 3 stands each on 2000 acres. Some members have multiple memberships which cuts down on pressure. We are allowed 1 doe per membership and only kill 5 does a year because nobody wants to kill them. My brother saw 28 does in one hunt. We can't kill decent bucks because the bucks can basically stand up from their bed and breed.
We only had about 15 deer killed this year and the rut is already gone after 3 weeks in November. They want it to be a trophy club but let all the does walk.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 2:09 pm to FrankDrebin
I hate the idea. Here in south east Texas our rut is mid to late Oct to mid Nov. State cuts of doe killin the weekend after Thanksgiving. I don't want to shoot does during the rut. I see anywhere from 3 to 8 does at every camera location. Buck to doe ratio is way off too..
Posted on 12/14/18 at 2:13 pm to lsupride87
quote:
True, but like you pointed out, when you pull the trigger you have no clue if you are shooting a bred doe with a good bucks sperm already inside her, a bred doe with a shitty bucks sperm already inside her, an unbred doe thats about to take the dominated bucks dick, or an unbred doe thats about to take ol retarded bucks dick
But youre killing what he lost time to breeding.
Again, im not saying don't hsoot them late because its bad for the herd. Im just saying Id rather shoot mine early due to their being a chance she has been bred my my best.
Dr James Kroll could walk up on the last day of the season, kick me in the dick and call me a dumbass and tell me it don't matter. I still wont shoot a doe after a certain point that she may be bred.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 2:17 pm to FelicianaTigerfan
To your point about does seeking out the biggest rack I don't believe that ..
Deer are like cows they are in standing estrus for a certain number of hours durin their cycle. Big bucks breed does because they are dominate and fight off others just like the big bull in the herd breeds most of the cows. 3 years ago I shot a cow horn spike that was 3 years old 12 inch spike as he was mounting a doe.. 15 min later I killed a 16 wide 5 year old 10 point as he hooked the dead spike..
Deer are like cows they are in standing estrus for a certain number of hours durin their cycle. Big bucks breed does because they are dominate and fight off others just like the big bull in the herd breeds most of the cows. 3 years ago I shot a cow horn spike that was 3 years old 12 inch spike as he was mounting a doe.. 15 min later I killed a 16 wide 5 year old 10 point as he hooked the dead spike..
Posted on 12/14/18 at 2:21 pm to Ron Cheramie
quote:
dont see what it matters for deer to all be dropping fawns at the same time
Dropping them all at the same time, gives predators a narrower window to catch and eat 2 week old fawns.
It also keeps your bucks born on time. Late born bucks will have less time to grow horns than earlier born bucks. Think buck born from does bed in mid December vs bucks born to does bred in February.
That may be a bit of an extreme example, but if they are overpopulated, its possible that doe may not breed until her second estrous.
Posted on 12/14/18 at 2:34 pm to Huntinguy
quote:
dropping them all at the same time gives predators a narrower window to catch and eat two week old fawns
that's one way to look at it other way would be that IF some drastic event (extreme weather would be one example) happened and wiped out all that age class of fawns then the ones born later would be better off because they would be the only ones alive
This post was edited on 12/14/18 at 2:38 pm
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