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re: Do you feel race relations would be better if CSA still existed.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:42 am to volod
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:42 am to volod
quote:
volod
Leesville
I thought about you last night watching The Retrieval. They were on their way to Leesville in the movie.
How do you feel about free blacks who were paid to go undercover as runaway slaves to find real runaway slaves?
0
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:45 am to volod
Humans are tribal by nature, it's just who we are. How we define what tribe we are in is what changes.
My grandfather on my father's side supposedly did not approve of my mother when my parents first got married because she was the wrong flavor of European-American. My grandfather was a 1st generation immigrant who was taught the old European national rivalries. Most of my generation (X) and later don't give a rats arse what part of the world other American's ancestors came from.
It's easy to hate a faceless stereotype you don't interact with, it's a lot harder to hate grandma and grandpa or your favorite aunt or uncle. The more these tribes intermingle into the melting pot the less these tribes exist. Normally I'd say our fixation on skin color would go away in a few more generations because there is more interracial dating than ever, but all of these people gaining money and power off of racial politics hiding behind "social justice" creates division, not assimilation. Combine that with us being so easily manipulated on social media and the powers that be wanting us divided into easy to market to groups, and our progress towards a colorblind society will be slowed.
We will get there but like I said before, humans are tribal by nature, so we will find new tribes within us to hate for stupid reasons. The Class Wars are really ready to ramp up.
My grandfather on my father's side supposedly did not approve of my mother when my parents first got married because she was the wrong flavor of European-American. My grandfather was a 1st generation immigrant who was taught the old European national rivalries. Most of my generation (X) and later don't give a rats arse what part of the world other American's ancestors came from.
It's easy to hate a faceless stereotype you don't interact with, it's a lot harder to hate grandma and grandpa or your favorite aunt or uncle. The more these tribes intermingle into the melting pot the less these tribes exist. Normally I'd say our fixation on skin color would go away in a few more generations because there is more interracial dating than ever, but all of these people gaining money and power off of racial politics hiding behind "social justice" creates division, not assimilation. Combine that with us being so easily manipulated on social media and the powers that be wanting us divided into easy to market to groups, and our progress towards a colorblind society will be slowed.
We will get there but like I said before, humans are tribal by nature, so we will find new tribes within us to hate for stupid reasons. The Class Wars are really ready to ramp up.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:46 am to volod
Things worked out for the best.
Doesn't mean that there's nothing good to be said about the South and some of its other reasons for declaring independence.
Doesn't mean that there's nothing good to be said about the South and some of its other reasons for declaring independence.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:48 am to volod
quote:
I would be dishonest in saying I don't have feelings involved (since I hate slavery)
You just couldn't help it, could you. Do you honestly believe that mainstream white people go through their lives thinking that slavery wasn't/isn't necessarily a bad thing?
Honest question.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:51 am to volod
You must be reading Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:52 am to volod
It's impossible to know, perhaps race relations would be better if the colonies had lost the War for Independence and slavery was abolished along with the rest of the British Empire.
Slavery would have continued if the CSA won, but without Reconstruction and it's aftermath, maybe integration would have been easier if it happened on its own.
Slavery would have continued if the CSA won, but without Reconstruction and it's aftermath, maybe integration would have been easier if it happened on its own.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 8:55 am to volod
quote:CSA Link (the Canadian Standards Association) not only still exists, it's doing good work ensuring products in Canada are safe and appropriate for their intended uses.
Do you feel race relations would be better if CSA still existed.
Possibly Canadian race relations are better because of CSA's existence.
Maybe you'd like to apply for a position there?
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:00 am to volod
quote:
For you military aficionados, another scenario would be how WWI and WWII would be fought. There is a strong likelihood that the South would possibly join AXIS powers or that the US/CSA as we know it would never become a world power. Why do you think a nation which abolished slavery would forego that to support a nation that thrives on it. And I doubt the Allied European powers would want that either.
I don't think the CSA would have jumped on board with the Axis powers. You're assuming that the CSA would view the U.S. as an enemy, and would turn on its historical ally, Great Britain. I don't think the CSA would see another war with the United States as being in its best interest. Such a war would threaten its very existence. And for what? Germany's approval? Nah... just don't see it.
I honestly think the CSA would either sit it out or assist Great Britain with the help of the United States. Perhaps WWII would have bring the U.S. and the CSA closer together.
Whatever the case, I don't see a divided USA/CSA being as effective for the Allies as a united USA. I still think the Allies win, but the cost is much higher and the war is longer.
I also think the CSA would have abolished slavery by the 1940's. The industrial revolution changed everything. I don't see the South holding on to the slavery system any longer than most other modernized nations. most of which had abolished slavery by 1900's. Few third-world nations still held on to slavery past the 1920s. Past a certain point, intellectual, religious, economic, ethical and diplomatic trends compel action on slavery. The CSA would not be immunized to those movements worldwide.
One thing is for sure, though, neither the South nor the U.S. would be better off now with a CSA victory in the Civil War. I think we would be decades behind - culturally, socially, technologically, economically.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:02 am to volod
quote:
For you military aficionados, another scenario would be how WWI and WWII would be fought. There is a strong likelihood that the South would possibly join AXIS powers
Just don't even with this. This is asinine speculation with no basis.
quote:
Why do you think a nation which abolished slavery would forego that to support a nation that thrives on it. And I doubt the Allied European powers would want that either.
You mean like they did with the Soviet fricking Union?
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:07 am to volod
quote:
For you military aficionados, another scenario would be how WWI and WWII would be fought. There is a strong likelihood that the South would possibly join AXIS powers or that the US/CSA as we know it would never become a world power.
Dude.
If the war had never been fought or if the South had won they'd be allied with and backed by France and probably also Great Britain.
There's a 0% chance they'd have backed the Nazis.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:07 am to volod
This is like asking if Jewish relations would be better if Nazi Germany still existed. What a stupid, stupid thread.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:15 am to volod
quote:
There is a strong likelihood that the South would possibly join AXIS powers
There's a fricking leap
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:20 am to volod
quote:
If there was an alternative timeline where the South won the civil war or peace had been made with the Union, do you feel that the plight of slavery would have been resolved.
Even if the CSA had won the war, slavery wouldn't have lasted much longer in the South. First, because the CSA would need European allies for both trade and military purposes. European powers had all abolished slavery well before the US Civil War started. So the CSA still being a slave holding nation would have been potentially problematic for them forging European alliances. Also, the late 1800's saw developments in technology and machinery. These new machines would be doing the majority of the work that previously was done by slave labor. Less need for their labor plus increased political pressure from overseas would've likely ended slavery in the south even if the CSA won the war.
quote:
For you military aficionados, another scenario would be how WWI and WWII would be fought. There is a strong likelihood that the South would possibly join AXIS powers or that the US/CSA as we know it would never become a world power.
I doubt that the South would have any interest in allying with Hitler. But depending on how Union-Confederacy relations went after the Civil War, I think its very plausible that they wouldn't want to fight together in the war and either one side joins the European Allies while the other sits the wars in Europe out. Or that both the Union and CSA sit out WW1 and WW2 in Europe, to avoid sending massive troops numbers overseas and leaving themselves vulnerable to a sneak attack by their rival neighbor. Not having the unified strength of the US on the Allies could've easily tipped the balance of power and allowing for a German victory in either of the World Wars.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:27 am to volod
quote:
If there was an alternative timeline where the South won the civil war or peace had been made with the Union, do you feel that the plight of slavery would have been resolved.
The Southern states stated in their constitution multiple protections for slavery. It is arguable that the practice could have potentially reached into the 1940s or worse.
I don't know when or if the CSA would have abolished slavery, but even if they got rid of the name, I doubt very seriously anything would have changed in a meaningful sense. Even 100 years after slavery, the states of the old confederacy still had institutionalized segregation, active disenfranchisement of black voters and a host of other discriminatory policies that kept black people in effective economic slavery. The only real difference was that at least they could leave, which they did in large numbers to northern cities.
There's no reason to think any of that would have changed without government action at the federal level and civil rights protests, etc. at the national level. No former confederate state voluntarily did away with these policies at least into the 1960s, when they were forced to, and there's no reason to think they would have by now.
Yes, I know the south has changed somewhat, but that is practically all because they were forced to change their policies and the next generation grew up with more integration and official recognition of racial equality. Had they grown up in a segregated society with institutional racism, they would have turned out just like their parents and grandparents, and it's doubtful anything would have changed.
And frankly, even as it is, it hasn't changed as much as some would like to claim. I would bet that you could hold a whites-only vote in Mississippi right now on the question of whether slavery should be reinstated, and "yes" would get at least 30% of the vote. If the question were on segregation of schools and other public offices and businesses, the "yes" vote would be well over 50%. Now, of course, that's Mississippi, which is the worst of all of the southern states, but other southern states wouldn't be all that much better, either, except maybe Florida, Virginia and North Carolina.
So, to answer your question, no, race relations would not be "better" in a modern CSA than they are in the current USA, although they might be quieter due to repression of public protest in the CSA.
quote:
For you military aficionados, another scenario would be how WWI and WWII would be fought. There is a strong likelihood that the South would possibly join AXIS powers or that the US/CSA as we know it would never become a world power.
I doubt that CSA would have joined the Axis, but it's very possible that it would have stayed out of the war altogether or provided only minimal support to the Allies. Supporting Axis would have been suicide and they would have known that.
As for becoming a world power, the US probably still would have been a major power because of its manufacturing capacity and large population. CSA would likely have been fairly strong economically if they ever modernized their post-civil war economy from the commodity-based economy they had into a manufacturing economy. It's entirely possible that USA and CSA would have remained trade partners with CSA providing raw materials and USA doing the manufacturing. Obviously, neither would have been as strong on its own as the USA was with both.
quote:
Why do you think a nation which abolished slavery would forego that to support a nation that thrives on it. And I doubt the Allied European powers would want that either.
If you're asking whether the USA would ally itself with the CSA and wondering if European allies would have wanted to, then I think the answer is yes. They would have been happy to work with anybody who was willing to help, as evidenced by the alliance with USSR during the war.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:29 am to volod
quote:
Do you feel race relations would be better if CSA still existed.
The things that y'all post here never cease to amaze me. This place would make a perfect case study on the psyche of the southern, white, male Gen-Xer.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:43 am to volod
quote:
Do you feel race relations would be better if CSA still existed.
Yes but the main benefit is it would have allowed conservatives and liberal progressives to go their separate political paths. And while our nation is not technically divided into 2 countries there is most definitely a socio-political divide that can be traced all the way back to the War of Northern Aggression.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:04 pm to volod
I don't know why I clicked on this thread. It's exactly what's wrong with this fricking message board. There is some world-class ignorance in here.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:18 pm to volod
Race Relations would be a lot better without race baiters.
1. Jesse Jackson - Fool
2. Gravy - Fat arse Idiot
3. Al Sharpton - Freaking Joke
1. Jesse Jackson - Fool
2. Gravy - Fat arse Idiot
3. Al Sharpton - Freaking Joke
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:30 pm to volod
Slavery has existed since the beginning of time all over the world. And it is wrong.
What would help race relations is that some black leaders would step up and be role models for young blacks. ie education, family values and work ethic.
What would help race relations is that some black leaders would step up and be role models for young blacks. ie education, family values and work ethic.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 3:03 pm to volod
Carthaginian Society of Athens?
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