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re: I'm sick of people saying the middle class is worse off than 4 decades ago.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:53 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:53 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:No one is saying this part, it's just you stuffing straw.
You have people in this thread saying that a 1973 middle class resident lived better and had better technology
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 5:54 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:53 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Yeah. I really have no idea what these people think
pean median income is a fraction of US median income. Hell, Italy's median income would be subpoverty level in the US
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:54 pm to Iosh
quote:Are u shitting me? That's an enormous piece of my point
saying this part, it's just you stuffing straw.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:55 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Materialism is not the only measure of class stability and contentment.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:56 pm to CarrolltonTiger
quote:
CarrolltonTiger
Holy frick. It's a ghost
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:56 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
You could live FANTASTIC today if all you did was live a 1970s lifestyle.
So let's play out your example in real life.
You become NYNOLAGUY1 for the day (God help you).
Based on the monthly expenses I gave you, what lifestyle choices do you make that can make you live like a king? Keep in mind you can't move because this is not dependant on geography. Instead of you becoming a structural engineer and your wife becoming an attorney, you choose what professions? Also keep in mind you can't have less kids because daycare existed in 1975 too.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:57 pm to ShortyRob
quote:Your point is that people in 1973 had better technology
Are u shitting me? That's an enormous piece of my point
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:59 pm to Iosh
Iosh, so are you on bernie sander's side on this topic or somewhere in between?
You have, as usual, taken offense to my beliefs. What are YOUR beliefs on the subject?
You have, as usual, taken offense to my beliefs. What are YOUR beliefs on the subject?
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:06 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Who knew... when things are new they are more expensive.
You left off some big ones.. what about a car? A house? The price of college? Average starting salary vs average cost to own a house?
You left off some big ones.. what about a car? A house? The price of college? Average starting salary vs average cost to own a house?
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:06 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
Based on the monthly expenses I gave you, what lifestyle choices do you make that can make you live like a king
Well. I almost certainly don't have 1500 in student loans that apparently didn't warrant the expenditure.
Then. Again, remember we are comparing to 1970.
My health insurance will only cover care avaliable in 1970. If this product were available, it would be dirt cheap.
My car wouldn't actually exist, but if someone was building 1970 cars, it would cost about 6k max.
I wouldn't have a cell phone. Nor would my family. Cable? Nope.
As to professions. Meh. It's the combination of profession and location. The reality from what you describe for yourself is that two teachers where I live are living better than you.
But the point is, in 1970, you couldn't have the health care you have access to now at any price. Same goes for almost every aspect of daily life.
And that applies to everyone. Your day care costs what it does because your day care workers love better than their 1970s counterparts too
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:08 pm to Iosh
quote:Good god.
Your point is that people in 1973 had better technology
The point is that OVERALL, which includes EVERY improvement in the intervening time, life is a shite ton better now.
It's not even close. Anyone who can't see this needs to pull their heads out of their arse and think beyond their politics
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:09 pm to bmy
quote:A car with 1970s attributes is much cheaper in 2017 than 1973.
what about a car?
quote:the average home in America is 1000 sgft larger than in 1973.
A house?
quote:said in my OP clearly that this is an issue.
The price of college?
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:10 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
People in 1973 were way better off, back then they had led Zeppelin and acdc, nowadays all we have is Kanye west and Justin beiber
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:10 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:But even THAT is only an issue because in the intervening years, we decided every swinging dick should go to school.
The price of college?
said in my OP clearly that this is an issue.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:10 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:My beliefs, as usual, are a lot more nuanced than this thread is allowing for. I think the middle class is better off in some ways, worse off in others. Most of the positives are technological, and while I definitely appreciate technology using it as the sole arbiter of "better/worse" is kind of weird.
Iosh, so are you on bernie sander's side on this topic or somewhere in between?
You have, as usual, taken offense to my beliefs. What are YOUR beliefs on the subject?
There are a lot of other things that have been subject to cost disease, and those tend to be big ticket items; healthcare and rent and education (not just college, it shows up in primary education costs) are going to hit you a lot harder than your cellphone bill and the amortized cost of a washing machine.
I also don't think cost disease is a simple function of "more government bad, less government good." It might be a complex function of that, but there are enough counterexamples that I don't know that you can ascribe this entirely to government. Instead I think of government as a sort of negative feedback loop driven by deeper societal demands which it attempts to satisfy and usually makes things worse.
For instance, the state subsidizes college, which obviously raises costs. But the other half of that cycle is a sort of secular credential inflation where everything under the sun requires a bachelor's degree. Both halves of that cycle drive the other; subsidies wouldn't be as urgent or destructive if the credentials weren't in demand. That's a societal trend reflected in the labor market. Where does it come from and should/can it be reduced? Those are complicated questions. A lot more complicated than some hosannah to the smartphone.
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 6:14 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:14 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
But the point is, in 1970, you couldn't have the health care you have access to now at any price. Same goes for almost every aspect of daily life.
So you agree that we are paying more because of what we are getting?
Also...
quote:
Your day care costs what it does because your day care workers love better than their 1970s counterparts too
So you agree daycare was cheaper (presumably because of less regulation)?
quote:
I wouldn't have a cell phone. Nor would my family. Cable? Nope
So that's like $80/month in my case.
Your basic argument is that it cost more to live then than now. I haven't heard much to that extent so far. Also you'll notice I excluded vehicles from my expenditures. If you think I am missing something I'd like to hear it.
quote:
to professions. Meh. It's the combination of profession and location.
But this shouldn't matter if all we changed was time, right? You claimed this was true regardless of geography.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:15 pm to Iosh
quote:Is anyone saying the other part?quote:
You have people in this thread saying that a 1973 middle class resident lived better and had better technology
No one is saying this part, it's just you stuffing straw.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:15 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
average home in America is 1000 sgft larger than in 1973.
But what about a sq ft to sq ft analysis?
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:21 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:You mean how many linoleum floors, formica counters, hollow doors, and naugahyde couches then vs now?
But what about a sq ft to sq ft analysis?
Posted on 3/13/17 at 6:31 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
the average home in America is 1000 sgft larger than in 1973.
OK, stop saying this. Its embarrassing.
Because if you move in a home that is 1000 sq ft less than the one youre currently living in?
Youre not in a middle class neighborhood anymore in 2017
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