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re: I quit doing cardio
Posted on 4/4/24 at 9:54 am to lsu777
Posted on 4/4/24 at 9:54 am to lsu777
quote:
IMO unless you are under 15% bodyfat measured by DEXA and at a FFMI of 22ish, consistently walk 8k steps and can do the following 1 mile- 9min press-135 bench-200 squat-315 deadlift- 350 pushups- 40 chins- 10 dead hang
then dont really care about all the rest because havent trained consistently enough to worry about vo2 max this or that longevity exercise
The data for longevity specifically suggest otherwise. You keep saying that the mortality benefit for strength is similar to cardiorespiratory fitness, but the numbers suggest an exponential benefit to fitness relative to strength, a benefit that is very unlikely to ever be equal even with all of confounding variables that influence both of the numbers.
Also, the person you replied to (a high level strength coach) is arguing for low intensity steady state cardio, the thing you are arguing against.
I too prefer to strength train, as most of us on this forum do, but you can’t ignore the data to fit personal preferences
Posted on 4/4/24 at 10:04 am to NewOrleansBlend
This thread and the “healthy calories “ thread have been great.
Posted on 4/4/24 at 10:06 am to NewOrleansBlend
quote:
Also, the person you replied to (a high level strength coach) is arguing for low intensity steady state cardio, the thing you are arguing against.
no i did not. i have specifically said walking, walking on an incline and walking carrying things are specifically what you should be doing, just not jogging
and i have the same certs as him more than likely. i just chose a better paying path with better work life balance because unless you are at a very big school and the head coach...the pay fricking sucks almost as bad as the hours suck
quote:
The data for longevity specifically suggest otherwise.
there is data on being able to do a certain number of pushups, chin ups, walking 8k steps, certain body fat percentages, FFMI, other strength metrics
you keep looking at cardio benefits in a vacuum. not to mention i said being able to run a 9min mile(guess you missed that part). the cardio benefits are not in a vacuum just like strength isnt either.
and yall keep saying...such and such said this...well show the studies.
and you get a cardio benefit from strength training and from walking.
and if you were around long enough you would know i suggest training like an athlete as in jumps/throws/sprints and have the ability to sprint full on, which i have mentioned multiple times in the thread and you keep ignoring because of some fascination with jogging
but ill go ahead and say it...want to look like shite, not be able to do shite in your late 60s and 70s keep jogging. we will see who is right in the end. ill be out playing basketball with my grandkids while all the joggers cant stand up straight.
i dont really care that much. imo 99% of this board majors in the minors, especially in the running threads. got guys with an ffmi of 16 and a BF% of 20 telling others the key to longevity is running. have fun with that
here is a little gift from the hodge twins
LINK
This post was edited on 4/4/24 at 10:10 am
Posted on 4/4/24 at 10:35 am to lsu777
quote:
there is evidence though that vo2 matters for longevity but much stronger evidence that muscle mass matters more…rank things after diet 1) heavy resistance training 2) sprints or some kind of weighted/heavy metabolic conditioning like strong man or sleds etc 3) jump/plyometric/throwing training to remain explosive 4) walking 5) vo2 max training is how i would rank them for longevity and overall health
quote:
2 focused strength sessions and 8k steps show massive massive benefits to all cause mortality. Would what he says be better…prolly, but not much
quote:
3-4 sessions of strength plus 8-10 min max conditioning plus 8k steps a day is more than sufficient for 98%+ of people
This is what you were saying at the beginning of the thread, which is very different to what you are saying now, perhaps you can see the difference.
Also, I never argued for jogging and in fact agreed with you that jogging was unnecessary and in some ways counterproductive. I was also the first person to bring up inclined walking in the thread
This post was edited on 4/4/24 at 10:38 am
Posted on 4/4/24 at 10:45 am to NewOrleansBlend
and i still say that of the 5 things i listed....VO2 max training like jogging is the least important
and 2 focused strength sessions plus 8k steps per day is more than 95% of americans do currently
the 3-4 sessions plus hard conditioing plus walking is more than 98-99% do.
so yea i wasnt wrong on that.
im sure in a perfect world it would be exactly like Rusin says or one of the others but most normal people dont have 15 hours to dedicate to fitness in a week
and when im talking VO2 max training, im talking traditional...jogging on a treadmill, jogging in the neighborhood, riding a stationary bike, elliptical etc
which imo is shite.
and 2 focused strength sessions plus 8k steps per day is more than 95% of americans do currently
the 3-4 sessions plus hard conditioing plus walking is more than 98-99% do.
so yea i wasnt wrong on that.
im sure in a perfect world it would be exactly like Rusin says or one of the others but most normal people dont have 15 hours to dedicate to fitness in a week
and when im talking VO2 max training, im talking traditional...jogging on a treadmill, jogging in the neighborhood, riding a stationary bike, elliptical etc
which imo is shite.
Posted on 4/4/24 at 11:12 am to lsu777
You are the king of strawman arguments in this thread. I didn’t endorse jogging, I don’t minimize the importance of strength training, I posted studies.
I think it is pretty clear that cardiorespiratory fitness is not the least important factor for longevity in any list.
I don’t think you’re capable of even being willing to change your mind about this issue so this is pointless to continue
I think it is pretty clear that cardiorespiratory fitness is not the least important factor for longevity in any list.
I don’t think you’re capable of even being willing to change your mind about this issue so this is pointless to continue
Posted on 4/4/24 at 12:52 pm to lsu777
quote:
1 mile- 9min press-135 bench-200 squat-315 deadlift- 350 pushups- 40 chins- 10 dead hang
Id say this is a pretty fair measure of well rounded fitness IMO. Anyone who can do all these things is gonna be a highly capable man(at least physically)
Posted on 4/4/24 at 12:56 pm to NewOrleansBlend
quote:
You are the king of strawman arguments in this thread. I didn’t endorse jogging, I don’t minimize the importance of strength training, I posted studies.
this is where context gets lost, i wasnt saying you endorsed jogging, sorry if it came out like that
quote:
I think it is pretty clear that cardiorespiratory fitness is not the least important factor for longevity in any list.
what do you consider cardio? i consider 8-10k steps as cardio. i consider it way more important than zone 2 training
quote:
People who walked 8,000 or more steps even one day a week were less likely to die over a 10-year period than those who did not, according to a study published in March in the Journal of the American Medical Association Network Open.
Among 3,000-plus participants, those who took at least 8,000 steps one or two days a week were 14.9% less likely to die over a 10-year period than those who did not. People who took 8,000 or more steps three to seven days a week were 16.5% less likely to die over the same period, according to the paper.
thats why
i also consider sprinting as more important because there are added benefits that come from sprinting that dont come from just zone 2 jogging
quote:
he question arises, which model of physical training successfully supports maintaining basic health characteristics? Today, the endurance model is preferred, and its advantages have been demonstrated repeatedly. Until now, however, this “classic model” has not been compared with any other one in the context of lifelong physical activity and health. Consequently, the concepts of exercise and training in health and aging research are often used as equivalents for endurance exercise and endurance training. We provide evidence that the sprint-oriented training model also results in optimal health outcomes in a long-run perspective. It should be emphasized that both sprint and endurance athletic groups benefit from their lifelong competitive sport participation much more than recreationally active or inactive individuals and that health benefits definitely outweigh the risks associated with intensive training (Fig. 1). There are, however, differences in the profile of benefits: long-term sprint-oriented training more effectively promotes bone mineral density, muscle mass, neuromuscular function, and probably training adherence, whereas endurance training is more effective in maintaining high aerobic capacity and cardiovascular function as well as optimal glucose metabolism and lipid profile across the lifespan. Both training models seem to facilitate keeping low fat mass effectively. The risk of tendinopathy is similar in both groups and higher than in the general population, but the injury rate during competition is higher in sprinters. Competitive master athletes participating in long-term intensive endurance training regimens may have a somewhat higher risk of deleterious cardiovascular structural and functional changes than the general population. An analogous risk in aging sprint-trained athletes is not known.
i never meant for it to say you endorsed jogging. not at all. i do not consider walking or sprint training as cardio nor do i consider hard conditioning as cardio
i consider cardio as prolonged zone 2 training. of the things i listed i think it is least important. if you feel its more, thats fine.
Posted on 4/4/24 at 1:08 pm to lsu777
quote:
and i have the same certs as him more than likely. i just chose a better paying path with better work life balance because unless you are at a very big school and the head coach...the pay fricking sucks almost as bad as the hours suck
Haha yeah I had some good certs but I know some old gym dogs that id trust to train me more than many who have all the fancy certs(you are dead on about pay too...hence why I decided real estate was a little more my style). I think youve proven your knowledge on this board. I think most of the disagreements in this thread from what I can tell, have been misunderstandings. I dont think ive seen anyone dismiss low intensity, steady state cardio, though I think as some have already pointed out, that one can structure their strength workouts to achieve many of the V02 benefits without solely relying on traditional "cardio"
For me a mix of both has been my sweet spot.
Posted on 4/4/24 at 1:36 pm to scottydoesntknow
quote:
Haha yeah I had some good certs but I know some old gym dogs that id trust to train me more than many who have all the fancy certs(you are dead on about pay too...hence why I decided real estate was a little more my style). I think youve proven your knowledge on this board. I think most of the disagreements in this thread from what I can tell, have been misunderstandings. I dont think ive seen anyone dismiss low intensity, steady state cardio, though I think as some have already pointed out, that one can structure their strength workouts to achieve many of the V02 benefits without solely relying on traditional "cardio"
For me a mix of both has been my sweet spot.
100%
im not dismissing it at all. im more taking the stance of...if i have to choice..what gives me the best mix of
1) health/longevity
2) what contributes more to the quality of my day to day life
3) training economy. in the end many of us are limited in time we can devote to training. I mean personally i would love to be able to do PPSA strongville every day of the year plus 3 days of inclined walking and eat like dante trudal says and push the shite out of the food and gain as much muscle as possible over next 3-4 years....but i dont. so we have to make choices factoring in ROI
i have made no bones about it...i value strength over all other modalities and not even remotely close. there will never be any changing of my mind that it is the most important quality when it comes to health, aesthetics, quality of life.
but when i say strength training, im not talking about being like a damn 300lbs bodybuilder or powerlifter that cant tie their shoes without getting out of breath either.
nad yea the certs are cool and all but the only one i really found extremely usefull was the cpps courses from defranco...well the westside stuff is great too but of the same vein. the stuff from Opex ccp was ok. alot of the other true certs are kind of useless.
i would like to get starting strength cert just to better my coaching of youth athletes.
This post was edited on 4/4/24 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 4/4/24 at 1:53 pm to lsu777
I don’t consider walking 8k steps a day to be cardio unless they are with increased effort (with resultant increase in heart rate) for a meaningful duration (all 8k steps in one session). If those steps are taken without increased effort I don’t think it’s making anyone more fit.
In all these studies we have know there is significant confounding, which I’ll define for those who might not know (not you) as factors other than the one being measured that affect the outcomes. The sedentary people likely had less healthy lifestyles in other ways as well (overnourishment, diabetes, htn, smoking, drinking) that weren’t measured that affected the results.
That study showed a 16% benefit to 8k steps. The VO2 max study I cited, showed at minimum a 40% benefit when going from low average to above average and up to a 500% benefit when going from low to elite. So 2.5x to 30x higher mortality benefit. Confounding significantly affects these results. To show this, we have to make assumptions. Let’s assume that 10% of all excess deaths are due to a confounder not measured, which I think k is conservative (the number could easily be 16%, erasing all of the benefit to walking 8k steps). When you factor in confounding, the effect of the study variable changes a lot in the 8k steps group, now 6% benefit, and very little in the Vo2 max groups, now 30-490% benefit, with VO2 now 5-81 times more beneficial than 8k steps.
Regarding sprinting vs endurance training. That article seems more like hypotheses rather than measurements of hard outcomes, but I think the hypotheses are reasonable. However, I think the benefits of sprint training listed can be more effectively reached with strength training.
In all these studies we have know there is significant confounding, which I’ll define for those who might not know (not you) as factors other than the one being measured that affect the outcomes. The sedentary people likely had less healthy lifestyles in other ways as well (overnourishment, diabetes, htn, smoking, drinking) that weren’t measured that affected the results.
That study showed a 16% benefit to 8k steps. The VO2 max study I cited, showed at minimum a 40% benefit when going from low average to above average and up to a 500% benefit when going from low to elite. So 2.5x to 30x higher mortality benefit. Confounding significantly affects these results. To show this, we have to make assumptions. Let’s assume that 10% of all excess deaths are due to a confounder not measured, which I think k is conservative (the number could easily be 16%, erasing all of the benefit to walking 8k steps). When you factor in confounding, the effect of the study variable changes a lot in the 8k steps group, now 6% benefit, and very little in the Vo2 max groups, now 30-490% benefit, with VO2 now 5-81 times more beneficial than 8k steps.
Regarding sprinting vs endurance training. That article seems more like hypotheses rather than measurements of hard outcomes, but I think the hypotheses are reasonable. However, I think the benefits of sprint training listed can be more effectively reached with strength training.
This post was edited on 4/4/24 at 2:17 pm
Posted on 4/4/24 at 3:11 pm to NewOrleansBlend
i never said that the study you showed didnt show a greater benefit to longevity for vo2 max groups
what i said was...you get a lot of that from strength training and the roi when factoring in quality of life is better. from strictly a numbers point, your study trumps anything..
but when factoring in roi of quality of life, aesthetics whatever it falls short imo.
and no you are not going to change my mind, nor do i really care that much to even want to change my opinion
but ill say this...if both strength training and endurance training both get us to 70+...which one do you feel is going to give us a better quality of life? which one would have the better metabolic benefit over the long haul? which one would have us looking better and being able to complete every day task? which one would we still be able to reasonably continue to do?
thats how i look at things
what i said was...you get a lot of that from strength training and the roi when factoring in quality of life is better. from strictly a numbers point, your study trumps anything..
but when factoring in roi of quality of life, aesthetics whatever it falls short imo.
and no you are not going to change my mind, nor do i really care that much to even want to change my opinion
but ill say this...if both strength training and endurance training both get us to 70+...which one do you feel is going to give us a better quality of life? which one would have the better metabolic benefit over the long haul? which one would have us looking better and being able to complete every day task? which one would we still be able to reasonably continue to do?
thats how i look at things
Posted on 4/4/24 at 3:57 pm to lsu777
I agree that it’s vital to stay strong as well and resistance train throughout life. But it’s not a zero sum game as you are implying, you can be both strong, fit from a cardio respiratory perspective, and mobile in 4-5 hours a week. About 2 hours for 2 full body workouts and the rest devoted to relatively easy cardio. Anybody doing a PPSA program is spending that much time in the gym so it’s not an extreme amount of time
This post was edited on 4/4/24 at 5:22 pm
Posted on 4/4/24 at 9:21 pm to lsu777
quote:
VO2 max training like jogging is the least important
I think some people just misunderstand the reason elite endurance athlete Zone2 train and forget it's part of a polarized training regime where you also have to do maximal efforts in the other 20% of your training. Most of us are not elite endurance athletes. You can stimulate mitochondrial bio genesis at any cardio zone level. You get more stimulus-response at higher effort levels per unit time. But efforts levels above Zone 3 leads to increased fatigue and the need for more recovery time. For endurance athletes total volume of training is everything. High intensity training and the required recovery limited total volume. While Zone 2 training allows for an almost unlimited training volume. If you only get 4-5 hours of cardio a week Zone2/polarized training is probably not the right thing for you to maximize cardio benefit. HIIT is probably a better fit in this scenario. But HIIT increases fatigue and might interfere with strength training. And for those of us over the hill there are cardiac risks running at high heart rates. Steps are a pretty meaningless metric. Time and heart rate are what should be targeted. If you can elevate your heart rate into zone 2-3 and maintain it there during your lifting routine you can probably kill two birds with one stone. That's the basis of the rucking using increased weight to increase heart rate during a normal walk pace.
Posted on 4/5/24 at 1:18 am to Aubie Spr96
quote:
I don't do cardio to lose weight or look better. I do cardio because it increases/maintains my VO2 Max which directly correlates to longevity. I lift weights to alleviate imbalances and help prevent injury so I can keep doing cardio.
Similar. And for me “cardio” isn’t any sort of goal. I just enjoy things that are “cardio” intensive. I don’t like being inside or even stationary outside unless I’m in a hammock or lounging on the deck.
Posted on 4/5/24 at 2:01 pm to PoopStainsx1
I do anchor my "cardio" around 2 - 3 HIIT workouts per week and 2- 3 longer, steady state ,VO2 max, for a target of between 100 and 150 minutes per week. Strength is 5 to 6 sessions, about 30 minutes per. That runs between 4 and 5 1/2 hours per week and tends to average out at about 275 to 280 minutes per week, all in.
20 hours of cardio for a non- marathon runner or triathlete seems insane and even extreme endurance athletes, not named Goggins, likely temper that with active rest weeks. Just the overuse injuries sustained would be counterproductive. That's 3 hours, 20 mins per day with a sole rest day. Of cardio.
frick that
20 hours of cardio for a non- marathon runner or triathlete seems insane and even extreme endurance athletes, not named Goggins, likely temper that with active rest weeks. Just the overuse injuries sustained would be counterproductive. That's 3 hours, 20 mins per day with a sole rest day. Of cardio.
frick that
This post was edited on 4/5/24 at 2:02 pm
Posted on 4/5/24 at 2:47 pm to Ace Midnight
It’s funny this came up on recommended after clicking and searching all the stuff related to this thread.
Galpin and Huberman : How to Assess and Improve All Aspects of Your Fitness
Lots of good stuff in here that reinforces both sides of the argument. A lot about the importance of vo2 max in longevity. A lot about the importance of maintaining fast twitch muscle fibers.
Most interesting thing to me….They actually run tests on two older identical twins. One is a 35 year endurance athlete, one doesn’t exercise at all. By all normal health markers, the endurance athlete twin is healthier. Their muscle mass is identical to the gram but the one who doesn’t exercise is stronger. They biopsy their quad muscles and the one who doesn’t exercise has about 50% slow twitch muscle fibers which is normal. The endurance athlete has 95% slow twitch muscle fibers in his quads!
Galpin and Huberman : How to Assess and Improve All Aspects of Your Fitness
Lots of good stuff in here that reinforces both sides of the argument. A lot about the importance of vo2 max in longevity. A lot about the importance of maintaining fast twitch muscle fibers.
Most interesting thing to me….They actually run tests on two older identical twins. One is a 35 year endurance athlete, one doesn’t exercise at all. By all normal health markers, the endurance athlete twin is healthier. Their muscle mass is identical to the gram but the one who doesn’t exercise is stronger. They biopsy their quad muscles and the one who doesn’t exercise has about 50% slow twitch muscle fibers which is normal. The endurance athlete has 95% slow twitch muscle fibers in his quads!
Posted on 4/5/24 at 3:52 pm to DeoreDX
quote:
I think some people just misunderstand the reason elite endurance athlete Zone2 train and forget it's part of a polarized training regime where you also have to do maximal efforts in the other 20% of your training.
DING!
Once you get over 20 miles per week, zone 2 is your friend. I can run 6 miles in zone 2 and it feels like I barely did anything. No fatigue. None of the aches and pains of a max effort. It's been a game changer for me being able to build mileage and keep from being injured. One reason I haven't been in my long run group in so long is they all run WAY too fast. No one wants to do the 11-12 min miles.
Posted on 4/5/24 at 3:52 pm to DeoreDX
quote:
I think some people just misunderstand the reason elite endurance athlete Zone2 train and forget it's part of a polarized training regime where you also have to do maximal efforts in the other 20% of your training.
The reason elite endurance athletes do high intensity training is because they are training for a race and have to train for speed. They arent training for health. If you’re not racing, then you don’t need to worry about speed and you shouldn’t care what a professional athlete’s training program looks like.
If you’re exercising for health, zone 2 causes virtually zero fatigue, which encourages people to exercise longer and new people to being willing to start and stick with it. It allows you to be fresh and injury free for the much needed strength training portion of the health recipe. So even if per minute zone 3/4/5 is “better”, in the long run the easiness of zone 2 will keep you in it longer and provide more net benefit IMO
If you’re training for a race, add speed work for the 6-8 weeks prior but it’s doesn’t need to be always in your program
This post was edited on 4/5/24 at 4:44 pm
Posted on 4/5/24 at 4:03 pm to NewOrleansBlend
Just saw this shirt today and felt it was appropriate here.
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