re: Putin’s Invasion Had the Opposite Intended Effect - Russia Now Surrounded by NATO

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Something doesn't add up.

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right. With one breath they call Russia weak, then cry they're taking over the region

They just say whatever is convenient at the time.

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As for Germany, they pretty much are the bull in the China shop for the EU. They get what they want because everyone in the EU allows them to get what they want. They need the stability of the German economy to backbone the EU.

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Seems like it's not being talked about enough that the German manufacturing industry is struggling mightily currently and industrial output is falling. This doesn't bode well for the EU with Germany being a huge power, and pushes more leverage to Russia. Europe is in an energy predicament regardless of what Putin does the next few years.

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This aggression was never actually about NATO.

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Here is another worthless opinion from SFP

You have no idea if that is true or false. You should always start any post with "IMO". The rest of us will laugh hard and then state our opinion.

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As in bilateral resolutions?

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100%!
That was a proposal following 4 rounds of negotiations, first in Belarus, then in Turkey. Multiple parties report Kyiv and Moscow were very close to a deal. Lavrov says Russia had signed off on the agreement.

• Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov stated a peace deal was reached with Ukraine last April and all the points were initialled before the deal was abandoned under Western pressure. He said, "We were not only ready, we agreed to negotiate, we reached an agreement in April 2022. And after that, as I understand it, Zelenskiy was told: since they agreed so quickly, let's exhaust [Russia].”

• Putin also confirmed a deal was done in comments in June. Putin waved a ‘peace agreement’ before Russian TV cameras on June 17, 2023, which, he said, Ukraine had ‘trashed’. It was a “Treaty on permanent neutrality and security guarantees of Ukraine” with 18 articles and an appendix dealing with ‘armed forces and other things’ Putin said.

• Former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett also confirmed that the West had blocked a potential peace deal. Bennett, who was participating in the talks between Ukraine and Russia, said of the US and its European allies: “Basically, yes. They blocked it, and I thought they were wrong.”

• Fiona Hill confirmed the same. “Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.”

• German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder said the same thing. Schroeder said that negotiations between Kyiv and Moscow consisted of five main points:

1. Refusal of Ukraine's membership in NATO.

2. Abolition of Ukrainization laws prohibiting the Russian language in the public sphere. Ukraine was ready to discuss the return of the Russian language to Donbass.

3. Donbass remains part of Ukraine, but becomes an autonomy based on the model of South Tyrol in Italy (autonomy with special status).

4. Ukraine receives security guarantees from the UN Security Council and Germany (according to the “5+1” formula, which was supported, according to Schroeder, by Umerov)

5. Crimea, judging by Schroeder’s wording, remains with the Russian Federation: “Crimea for Russia is not just a piece of land, it is part of its history.” But the Ukrainians, he said, demanded negotiations on the status of the peninsula.

According to Schroeder, it was not possible to reach an agreement because “everything was decided in Washington.” He stated, "I think that the Americans did not want a compromise between Ukraine and Russia. The Americans think that the Russians can be contained.

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Are you honestly contending NATO is no threat to Russia?

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It is a free country.
Site your evidence.

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Russia will remain a functioning intact country long after the USA has been destroyed from within.

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Their population vacuum won't be filled as easily as you think

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While I strongly denounce Putin's invasion of Ukraine, it's not an unreasonable argument that NATO was aggressive in slowly creeping east onto Russia's borders

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Lol

NATO didn't invade Russia.
You can just hit a full stop with your nonsense.
Every country has borders.
Acting like the existence of a border is a threat is funny.

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No NATO member has been aggressive yet, but I wouldn't put it past Germany to get aggressive over resources and for Finland to get aggressive in taking back what was once theirs if they perceived sufficient Russian weakness.

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So there is no evidence of territorial aggression. Just Putin talking points.
Got it

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They get what they want from the E.U. because they're the ones largely picking up the tab. I don't blame them for making demands.

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We are in agreement on this one.
Germany acting in favor of the German economy should be expected.
As is the USA acting in favor of the US economy.
The difference is that Russia is moving their borders. Not Poland. Not Finland. Not the US.
Acting in one's interest shouldn't involve troops on the ground.

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So there is no evidence of territorial aggression.

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Bitch, we're talking about the Northern European Plain. The entire history of that area is aggression and conquest. The fact that it's been peaceful for the past 80 years is completely artificial and was created by Bretton Woods and NATO. Remove either of those two and Europe will devolve back to what it's always been....a war-torn shithole rivaling the Middle East.

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It is a free country.

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So is Cuba. There is a reason they don't have nukes.

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Site your evidence.

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It's been done numerous times here. First of all, perception is reality. Russia perceives a threat. There is basis for that belief.

NATO rejected Russia joining the alliance 2 decades ago. That established a NATO-Russian adversarial status for the Russians. In 2008 NATO stupidly pronounced the Ukraine and Georgia would become alliance members. Russia responded immediately and forcefully that those countries by 1991 agreements were to remain neutral. NATO alignment would breach those agreements and would result in war.

In the interim between 2008 and 2022, Russia reiterated its position over, and over, and over again. Putin highlighted the threat posed to Russia of NATO exercises in the Baltics. As he put it, flying nuclear bombers 12mi from the Russian border forces Russia to deploy defensively. NATO claims to be a defensive alliance, but as he puts it, nuclear bombers are not defensive weapons. Succumbing to the same threat on the Ukrainian and Georgian borders would constitute a real financial and defense problem for Russia.