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re: If you believe your rights come from God then you are a Christian Nationalist
Posted on 2/23/24 at 1:30 pm to ThuperThumpin
Posted on 2/23/24 at 1:30 pm to ThuperThumpin
It's not an appeal to authority. The steal-man argument for a naturalist worldview is everything can be explained through science and logic. You're trying to take logic out of the equation while arguing for naturalism. Anybody can just say words. And I can prove morality is objective. If you make a statement, it can't be both true and false at the same time. The simple fact that you're making a moral argument in the first place is proof that morality is objective. The argument for moral relativism is self-defeating.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 1:32 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
Even atheist scholars would laugh at this statement.
The reasonably intelligent ones wouldn't.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 1:41 pm to Flats
quote:
This is a gross oversimplification
Fair enough....
quote:
Everybody (sans anarchists) wants SOME of their morality enforced via a central governing body. Atheists, theists, Jainists, Hindus; everybody.
Almost nobody wants ALL of their morality enforced via a central governing authority. Outside of a few Jim Jones types that's a fictional boogyman
Some want more than others. When I look at publications like Project 2025 and see stuff like arguments to ban all pornography and House speaker Johnson noting that “I try to do every day what my constituents want. But sometimes what your constituents want does not line up with the principles God gave us for government. And you have to have conviction enough to stand up to your own people”
....
lets just say it gives me pause. And he certainly is not alone in his pov. I fear a right wing backlash to all the wokeism from the left that is just as shitty and authoritarian in nature. We dont have to freak out about it..but be aware of it.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 1:44 pm to Flats
quote:The reasonably intelligent atheists would say to take logic out an argument for moral relativism? What am I missing?
The reasonably intelligent ones wouldn't.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 1:56 pm to Bobby OG Johnson
This post was edited on 2/24/24 at 12:47 pm
Posted on 2/23/24 at 1:56 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
Some want more than others.
It's probably more accurate (percentage-wise) to say that some want different morality enforced. It's easy to gloss over the values that are already codified and pretend that any new ones are an affront to liberty, all while ignoring the restrictions already in place that people like just fine.
Put another way, is a law telling you that you cannot consider race or sex when hiring for your private business (or renting the room above grandma's garage) any better than one that tells you that you can't open a strip club on your property because it's 500 feet from an elementary school? We're just used to many of them so they never get considered when we're talking about "enforcing morality."
Posted on 2/23/24 at 1:59 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
The reasonably intelligent atheists would say to take logic out an argument for moral relativism?
No, they would say that you can't use logic to determine morality. This was the claim you disagreed with:
quote:
I would agree. Morals are not based on logic.
Morals aren't based on logic. That's 100% accurate.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:04 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
If you make a statement, it can't be both true and false at the same time. The simple fact that you're making a moral argument in the first place is proof that morality is objective. The argument for moral relativism is self-defeating.
Ok so Im trying to think this through...I can see how one can use logic to make a moral argument like application of logic to determine an optimal course of action based on the implications of that course of action. But it still requires a value system to determine the right/wrong of those outcomes.
some people may value comfort, others freedom, others may believe ends do not justify means. All people determining the morality of a choice should theoretically agree on the logic, however their individual prioritization of principles may lead them to different moral conclusions. Thats where the subjective part comes in that I cant get around.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:09 pm to Flats
quote:
Morals aren't based on logic. That's 100% accurate.
Well I think logic is used in some capacity to judge morality. The reasoning for some moral decisons .. For example one may use logic to determine a moral question such as whether it is appropriate to drop a bomb on civilians in order to end a war. That kind of stuff but there is still a subjective value system at play.
This post was edited on 2/23/24 at 2:11 pm
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:12 pm to VOR
Freedom of Religion is an inherent right. The founding fathers did not impose a state church because that is government dictating to you or taking away an inherent right to worship or not worship as you wish.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:13 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
Well I think logic is used in some capacity to judge morality.
It can be used once a value is settled upon. It can create a path towards a goal, but it can't tell you whether the goal is "good" or "bad".
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:13 pm to Flats
quote:Then how do you claim that the naturalist world view is based on logic? For that to be true, you can never actually know anything. Everything is just based on your perceptions and feelings.
Morals aren't based on logic.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:14 pm to Bobby OG Johnson
What about the atheist nationalists?
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:16 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
Then how do you claim that the naturalist world view is based on logic?
I don't. Never have.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:16 pm to Flats
quote:
t can create a path towards a goal, but it can't tell you whether the goal is "good" or "bad".
Right ...yea we are on the same page.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:20 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:I think I understand what you're driving at. I'm not disagreeing in that people's perception of morality varies. Of course that's true. If you want to call that subjectivity, that's cool. But if 2 people are on opposite sides of a moral argument, and you say the other person is acting immorally, morality must be objective. One of you has to be correct. If it's truly subjective, you would both be correct morally in taking opposite positions. Therefore, if morality is subjective, you can never say someone else acting immorally, because morality is based on each individual.
some people may value comfort, others freedom, others may believe ends do not justify means. All people determining the morality of a choice should theoretically agree on the logic, however their individual prioritization of principles may lead them to different moral conclusions. Thats where the subjective part comes in that I cant get around.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:20 pm to VOR
Tell that to the Amish and JWs.
This post was edited on 2/23/24 at 2:22 pm
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:22 pm to Flats
quote:
Put another way, is a law telling you that you cannot consider race or sex when hiring for your private business (or renting the room above grandma's garage) any better than one that tells you that you can't open a strip club on your property because it's 500 feet from an elementary school? We're just used to many of them so they never get considered when we're talking about "enforcing morality."
You give good food for thought without being a dick. Wish this board had more posters like you
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:25 pm to Bobby OG Johnson
Everyone not them is the enemy.
As a non-religious person, and one who actually follows the science, men are men and women are women. Guess I'm branded a bigot and headed for the reeducation camps.
Posted on 2/23/24 at 2:29 pm to FATBOY TIGER
quote:It's helpful to have a rational defense of that, otherwise it's merely opinion.
So, you need an explanation as to why or from whom you need to protect the things you hold dear?
Within a Christian worldview, rights are based on God's decree. Humans have rights because God says we do, since we are made in His image and have inherent value and worth with rights that should be respected and upheld or else judgement will fall on those who abuse other image-bearers by God, Himself.
If God is not the basis of human rights, then what is? Without an objective standard to appeal to, all you're left with is subjective standards that can vary from individual to individual, or from society to society, or from generation to generation. The right to life exists only if a particular society at a particular time says it does, in this scenario.
So if you reject God, you reject the foundation for inherent, unchangeable, and inalienable rights. If rights come from the minds of men, then the minds of men can take them away. The minds of men can also create any sort of "right" they desire.
So while you don't need God to have rights, you need God to make rights meaningful in a real sense.
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