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re: Universal income discussion
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:15 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:15 am to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:with inevitable "unequal" outcomes afterwards (which is why it will never happen)
But yes, there would have to be a massive restructuring of society. Less (or no) foreign handouts, smaller military, etc. I could get behind that, regardless of UI.
1
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:17 am to LSUnation78
quote:
Lmao, because our prison systems dont make enough profit
How is this relevant?
If you go to prison, you should have to pay for your incarceration. Obviously, few people can, because they are in jail. So, the government pays for it.
But if you are getting UI, that payment should go back to the government (or you just don't get UI while in jail, which works out to be the same). No other person should be able to get your UI, so either you don't get it, or the government gets it.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:20 am to cgrand
quote:
with inevitable "unequal" outcomes afterwards (which is why it will never happen)
Exactly.
We have to let people fail, or even die.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:20 am to BigBinBR
quote:
This right here puts us back to exactly where we are now. Only our money is even more worthless.
Edit: The only way this would ever work would be if there was an absolute price freeze on everything - which is ludicrous.
Exactly. The free market would adjust to where now $25k (or whatever it is) is basically $0. You must suppress the free market in order to randomly and universally increase income.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:20 am to fallguy_1978
I think SS is only a ponzi scheme because the government puts their dirty little hands on it. I have paid in 150k over the last 32 years, I started paying when I was 12. How much of a Ponzi scheme is it when I won’t even get what I paid in, much less, with any type of allowance for compounding interest.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:22 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Whoever came up with this doesn’t understand the basics of supply and demand or monetary inflation.
This post was edited on 5/30/23 at 10:23 am
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:24 am to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
8. If you go to prison, your UI goes to the entity that is imprisoning you to pay for your incarceration. No one else can get your UI except you.
I understand your intentions, but this needs to be reworked. There can’t be an incentive to incarcerate people. Someone else is getting your UI. Instead of speed traps in small towns, Sheriff John will throw your arse in his jail to collect your UI.
How close do we want the floor to the ceiling?
This post was edited on 5/30/23 at 10:26 am
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:24 am to Jon A thon
quote:
Exactly. The free market would adjust to where now $25k (or whatever it is) is basically $0. You must suppress the free market in order to randomly and universally increase income.
What is the current value of government benefits for the average recipient?
We would not be going from $0 to $25,000. Much of this already exists. And could even decrease under this system for many people.
But yes, that is a concern and an issue. This is one reason I said it should be the same amount, regardless of geography. I think this would level out some wide cost of living variances around the country. (but I'm not an economist, so who knows)
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:24 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Those pushing for UBI have little to no understanding of economics nor a fiat currency.
The primary result of implementing a UBI would be to raise the price floor of the entire economy (by lowering the value of the currency). To put this a little more clearly, if you make everyone a millionaire, a million dollars is soon to be worthless.
For those still struggling with that concept, understand that money simply represents the value one allots to a good or service and that value is set, to a good extent, by how much of that money exists at any given time.
Let's take this for example:
That's a Very Fine/Near Mint first-run edition of Action Comics #1, in 2014 it sold for over $3M. Why? In part because it's the very first appearance of Superman, but also because it's extremely rare. If everyone had 20 of them, you couldn't give them away.
That's the same mechanic a UBI would have on the value of our fiat currency.
IMO, this would be the 2nd biggest issue (behind currency devaluation) because there's absolutely no way someone running for office wouldn't try to win re/election on the back of trying to change the scenario so that UBI would be an additional handout. This would, of course, greatly exacerbate the primary problem of currency devaluation (which would be seen and felt by the consumer as "inflation").
The primary result of implementing a UBI would be to raise the price floor of the entire economy (by lowering the value of the currency). To put this a little more clearly, if you make everyone a millionaire, a million dollars is soon to be worthless.
For those still struggling with that concept, understand that money simply represents the value one allots to a good or service and that value is set, to a good extent, by how much of that money exists at any given time.
Let's take this for example:
That's a Very Fine/Near Mint first-run edition of Action Comics #1, in 2014 it sold for over $3M. Why? In part because it's the very first appearance of Superman, but also because it's extremely rare. If everyone had 20 of them, you couldn't give them away.
That's the same mechanic a UBI would have on the value of our fiat currency.
quote:
2. It has to replace ALL other forms of government handouts and entitlements: No more social security, welfare, foodstamps, etc.
3. It has to be completely cold and brutal: "This is what you get, period." It won't work if we aren't willing to let people starve in the ditch. Sure, there would still be a place for charity, churches, etc. But the government cannot allow people to waste their UI, and then swoop in and give them more.
IMO, this would be the 2nd biggest issue (behind currency devaluation) because there's absolutely no way someone running for office wouldn't try to win re/election on the back of trying to change the scenario so that UBI would be an additional handout. This would, of course, greatly exacerbate the primary problem of currency devaluation (which would be seen and felt by the consumer as "inflation").
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:25 am to Bjorn Cyborg
You mean communism
This only can work in smaller size countries with a homogeneous population
This only can work in smaller size countries with a homogeneous population
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:26 am to pjab
quote:
I understand your intentions, but this needs to be reworked. There can’t be an incentive to incarcerate people. Someone else is getting your UI. Instead of speed traps in small towns, Sheriff John will throw your arse in his jail to collect your UI.
How close do we want the safety net to the ceiling?
I agree. The main point is that you don't get your UI while in prison. No one else can get your UI.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:28 am to lsucoonass
quote:
a homogeneous population
you think that giving $25-30k/year to a bunch of hood rats that are several generations into having been brainwashed into thinking they've been wronged and are due eternal reparation would change much?
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:28 am to lsucoonass
quote:
This only can work in smaller size countries with a homogeneous population
I said I don't think it can work.
quote:
You mean communism
But it's not communism. You would still be able to work and earn as much as you want, with no penalty.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:29 am to Bjorn Cyborg
We have had universal basic income in this country since at least the 1940s and almost all Americans have benefitted to some degree. The largest beneficiaries are low wage employers who rely on taxpayers to subsidize their production costs while the keep the windfall.
Many people fantasize about some mythical era when people were self reliant and ethical and moral and always did the right thing. While it has never happened too many people like to pretend as if they themselves are exactly that way and have never received any benefit from collective spending. Ironically they will tell you this while they drive their car down a paved highway on the way to an airport where they plan to catch a flight to a reunion of their public schools graduation.
People can make their nut in 3 typical ways...earning it through labor, earning it through subsidy or stealing it...or some combination of these. If they steal it they are still going to meet their nut in prison through subsidy. The best way is for them to earn it through labor...but that means employers must pay for the entirety of production costs which they refuse to do and we allow them to get by with, often lauding them as heros and "job creators" in the process.
There has never been a time in the history of the western world where the majority of people could live a very basic lifestyle by today's standard through labor alone...we almost all are subsidized in some way, transportation, healthcare, housing, education...we almost all have benefitted in some way. In the past people could indeed live on what they earned because they were free to live however they could...most Americans think living in a tent today ought to be a crime. There once was a time when taking a dump on the ground was common practice...most people think that ought to be against the law today. With such niceties someone has to pay the bill. It would be better if employers did but we pretend that people have a market price and then subsidize their employers production costs.
Many people fantasize about some mythical era when people were self reliant and ethical and moral and always did the right thing. While it has never happened too many people like to pretend as if they themselves are exactly that way and have never received any benefit from collective spending. Ironically they will tell you this while they drive their car down a paved highway on the way to an airport where they plan to catch a flight to a reunion of their public schools graduation.
People can make their nut in 3 typical ways...earning it through labor, earning it through subsidy or stealing it...or some combination of these. If they steal it they are still going to meet their nut in prison through subsidy. The best way is for them to earn it through labor...but that means employers must pay for the entirety of production costs which they refuse to do and we allow them to get by with, often lauding them as heros and "job creators" in the process.
There has never been a time in the history of the western world where the majority of people could live a very basic lifestyle by today's standard through labor alone...we almost all are subsidized in some way, transportation, healthcare, housing, education...we almost all have benefitted in some way. In the past people could indeed live on what they earned because they were free to live however they could...most Americans think living in a tent today ought to be a crime. There once was a time when taking a dump on the ground was common practice...most people think that ought to be against the law today. With such niceties someone has to pay the bill. It would be better if employers did but we pretend that people have a market price and then subsidize their employers production costs.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:30 am to 777Tiger
quote:
you think that giving $25-30k/year to a bunch of hood rats
How much do you think they are getting now?
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:31 am to AwgustaDawg
quote:
We have had universal basic income in this country since at least the 1940s
No.....we haven't
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:32 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Why not hoist a hammer and sickle and exclaim the benefits of following the luciferian beliefs of Karl Marx himself?
What a perverse generation that even considers this sickness. You don’t know what you’re doing. There is no way back from this, I hope you know that. You will forever be their servants. They will control your ability to live your life through economics, your food, your movement, and you will have no other choice than to obey, even if you loathe every bit of it. It won’t matter because you are in the trap.
What a perverse generation that even considers this sickness. You don’t know what you’re doing. There is no way back from this, I hope you know that. You will forever be their servants. They will control your ability to live your life through economics, your food, your movement, and you will have no other choice than to obey, even if you loathe every bit of it. It won’t matter because you are in the trap.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:33 am to 777Tiger
I wasn’t implying hoodrats, God no
I was thinking more like a country such as Iceland
I was thinking more like a country such as Iceland
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:33 am to Bjorn Cyborg
Its just more communism from our friends who's grandparents survived WW2 camps.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 10:33 am to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
How much do you think they are getting now?
thought part of the proposal was that the handouts would stop, this is what you are guaranteed and anything you make on top of that is gravy?
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