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re: Universal income discussion
Posted on 5/30/23 at 3:40 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
Posted on 5/30/23 at 3:40 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
There are people living in the Mississippi Delta region who have generations of family on welfare. These areas have basically been on UBI for 50 years or more.
This is all due to the automation of agriculture, which is no different of a concept than we are discussing here.
The smart, ambitious people moved to the jobs. If there are no jobs to be had anywhere,what then? Smart, ambitious people with no prospects and a lot of time on their hands are dangerous to the existing social order.
2
Posted on 5/30/23 at 3:41 pm to RogerTheShrubber
“ , no one will work and most Americans will sit around using drugs and playing video games. It’s so unsustainable.”
This is true, however, UBI is predicated on the future assumption that due to automation and AI, most people wouldn’t NEED to work in order for everything to get done. That there wouldn’t be jobs available at all for a majority of the population.
This is true, however, UBI is predicated on the future assumption that due to automation and AI, most people wouldn’t NEED to work in order for everything to get done. That there wouldn’t be jobs available at all for a majority of the population.
This post was edited on 5/30/23 at 3:51 pm
Posted on 5/30/23 at 3:47 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
By some estimates, the mechanization of agriculture canceled as many as 8 million jobs. The poverty we see in the south, especially in the Delta region, is due in a large part to this.
Not sure I agree with this. Generational poverty can end the moment people start training for the jobs that exist.
Southern poverty seems to be more of a cultural issue.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 3:47 pm to Jim Rockford
I think we agree, I'm just pointing out that this is not some new problem. This has been a problem for a long time.
However, our government has incentivized child birth.
Many of the people that are hypothetically soon to be unemployed, perhaps never would have been born.
However, our government has incentivized child birth.
Many of the people that are hypothetically soon to be unemployed, perhaps never would have been born.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 3:50 pm to Willie Stroker
quote:
Not sure I agree with this. Generational poverty can end the moment people start training for the jobs that exist.
Southern poverty seems to be more of a cultural issu
What jobs exist in the delta?
A farm that previously took hundreds to run, can now be worked by a man and his son, and maybe a couple of employees.
I do think the government enabled this culture by paying entitlements to people in dead towns. They should be forced to relocate or cancel their benefits.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:05 pm to NOLAVOL16
quote:
UI doesn’t have anything to do with this. Both of these things are already happening
UI will accelerate what already exists. It’s an economic fact.
And, as I posted earlier, I think UI is inevitable at some point. But it will be a shitty, shitty existence.
And just wait for the political ramifications. Elections will be awesome when 80% of the voting population are completely reliant on government handouts.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:09 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
Most people have a hard time with hard boundaries which would make it difficult. People will always want more.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:09 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
And just wait for the political ramifications. Elections will be awesome when 80% of the voting population are completely reliant on government handouts.
Imagine the economic ramifications. Companies won't need to automate things when nobody has enough money to buy their products and services.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:20 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
And also, why did we not have this conversation during the industrial revolution, and then the resulting automation that occurred with machinery, such as tractors, manufacturing, etc?
By some estimates, the mechanization of agriculture canceled as many as 8 million jobs. The poverty we see in the south, especially in the Delta region, is due in a large part to this.
We didn’t have the conversation because the exact opposite occurred. The Industrial Revolution created a demand for labor (mostly no skilled or low skilled) never seen before in human history.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:22 pm to fallguy_1978
quote:
Imagine the economic ramifications. Companies won't need to automate things when nobody has enough money to buy their products and services.
You’re timeline is wrong. Automation will have already occurred and the price of most products will be dirt cheap. There will be a small market for speciality, expensive luxuries but most production will be things that people constantly buy and replace.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:41 pm to Antonio Moss
Where is the government going to get tax revenue to pay these massive numbers of unemployed citizens? Citizens that are largely poor now.
Never underestimate the length the government will go to to protect their revenue streams. They'd outlaw the percentage of jobs that could be automated even.
Never underestimate the length the government will go to to protect their revenue streams. They'd outlaw the percentage of jobs that could be automated even.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:46 pm to Antonio Moss
Once they figure out how to keep the shake machine working or my wifi from dropping in the middle of the day I’ll worry about AI taking over the world.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:50 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
We didn’t have the conversation because the exact opposite occurred.
But still caused massive unemployment and poverty in large swaths of the country that still exists today.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:53 pm to Antonio Moss
“ And just wait for the political ramifications. Elections will be awesome when 80% of the voting population are completely reliant on government handouts”
If it gets to this point, your alternative is that 80% taking up violent revolution and civil war. Elections are the least of the concern.
If it gets to this point, your alternative is that 80% taking up violent revolution and civil war. Elections are the least of the concern.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:58 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
But still caused massive unemployment and poverty in large swaths of the country that still exists today.
I would challenge this assertion.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 5:59 pm to NOLAVOL16
UI would also have be virtually impossible to increase. This would keep politicians from using increasing it as a campaign tactic. Should also MAYBE help with inflation if it couldn’t be raised.
Probably not though. (Again, I hate this idea, just having an interesting discussion)
Probably not though. (Again, I hate this idea, just having an interesting discussion)
Posted on 5/30/23 at 6:02 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
6. The UI can't be garnished, inherited, mortgaged, liened, promised or sold.
Not inherited makes no sense unless you mean kids don’t continue to get parent paychecks. But if I save mine, my kids should get 100%.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 6:07 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
quote:
1. Be universal. Every adult has to get the same amount. It can't vary by income, geography or age.
2. It has to replace ALL other forms of government handouts and entitlements: No more social security, welfare, foodstamps, etc.
People who think this would work have a fundamental non-understanding of supply and demand.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 6:09 pm to Bjorn Cyborg
“ UI would also have be virtually impossible to increase. This would keep politicians from using increasing it as a campaign tactic. Should also MAYBE help with inflation if it couldn’t be raised”
We’re getting sidetracked with the idea of this thing being “money”. In my view UBI would be basic food, clothing, and shelter. In other words, tangible things that you cannot waste easily.
Once we get to this point of AI and automation, the whole idea of money kind of becomes obsolete. Again, this is not any time soon.
We’re getting sidetracked with the idea of this thing being “money”. In my view UBI would be basic food, clothing, and shelter. In other words, tangible things that you cannot waste easily.
Once we get to this point of AI and automation, the whole idea of money kind of becomes obsolete. Again, this is not any time soon.
Posted on 5/30/23 at 6:09 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
There are people living in the Mississippi Delta region who have generations of family on welfare. These areas have basically been on UBI for 50 years or more.
And that’s turned out so well for the area… we would be better off cutting the population in half by the deadbeats moving elsewhere to work and keeping those who have employment even if it meant smaller population rather than subsidizing the ones who don’t work
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