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re: The Atlantic really mad at Twitter. They have no answer for #DiedSuddenly.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 6:00 pm to Flats
Posted on 1/25/23 at 6:00 pm to Flats
But it matters a great deal on this board, right? There's a lot of virtue-signaling with regard to vaccine status with people peacocking about having been smart enough to have made the right decision from the beginning and avoided the clot shot. Most of this is motivated reasoning and justifying prior behavior, but not all of it (I agree with your lupus analogy to an extent).
We mostly agree (go back to my first post where I listed 3 reasons):
We're mostly agreeing. It's just an interesting observation that in my setting see an unrepresentative dearth of vaccine skepticism in practice relative to crazy's:
1. context/lack of permission structure to voice doubts (See David's post endorsing this idea).
2. self-selection (idea that people who don't trust you and your interventions aren't going to show up in the first place)
3. signaling - like in my Christian Science example, people act faithfully on their group-identity beliefs, but not in all circumstances, especially in those where detection is low. This is probably the smallest of the three factors.
of course the biggest one is population. The base rate of the catchment population is going to vary with demographics/geography and specific insurances which filter your experience. American medicine is pretty diverse.
Do you think that only libs virtue signal?
We mostly agree (go back to my first post where I listed 3 reasons):
We're mostly agreeing. It's just an interesting observation that in my setting see an unrepresentative dearth of vaccine skepticism in practice relative to crazy's:
1. context/lack of permission structure to voice doubts (See David's post endorsing this idea).
2. self-selection (idea that people who don't trust you and your interventions aren't going to show up in the first place)
3. signaling - like in my Christian Science example, people act faithfully on their group-identity beliefs, but not in all circumstances, especially in those where detection is low. This is probably the smallest of the three factors.
of course the biggest one is population. The base rate of the catchment population is going to vary with demographics/geography and specific insurances which filter your experience. American medicine is pretty diverse.
Do you think that only libs virtue signal?
This post was edited on 1/25/23 at 6:02 pm
2
Posted on 1/25/23 at 6:34 pm to TigerDoc
quote:
Do you think that only libs virtue signal?
No, but as we've discussed before I just don't see peer pressures on an anonymous forum. I don't know a single person who posts here, it's just an interesting diversion for people with (mostly?) white collar jobs. Twitter, facebook; things tied to someone's identity, especially if they're attempting to attain celebrity status, are all conducive to virtue signaling. An anonymous forum? I just don't see it, but maybe you're projecting.
See, I can do the passive-aggressive thing too.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 8:06 pm to Flats
No worries, Flats. Passive-aggression is a time-honored scientific value, so I'll take it as a bit of identity-signaling among tribesmen. 
Posted on 1/25/23 at 8:37 pm to Penrod
quote:
almost none of us knows anyone who has had a problem with the vaccine.
I live in a rural area and know at least three people personally that experienced serious health issues after receiving the vaccine. So I guess I'm an anomaly. Or maybe you are.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 8:51 pm to samson73103
I am rural as well and know at least three vax casualties. I also know a mortician that has to remove clots in order to embalm them. Clots as long as 5 feet!The vax casualties are undeniable.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 3:23 am to Penrod
quote:
Sure, you'll get some yo-yos who will say otherwise on an anonymous message board when it can't be substantiated. But ask your friends.
I can't. They are all dead.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 4:38 am to Penrod
quote:
I keep pointing this out: almost none of us knows anyone who has had a problem with the vaccine. Sure, you'll get some yo-yos who will say otherwise on an anonymous message board when it can't be substantiated.
Well I guess there's nothing to see here...cause an anonymous yo-yo on the internet has spoken...smfh
Posted on 1/26/23 at 7:23 am to GumboPot
quote:
But “died suddenly” thrives on Twitter. Tweets referencing news stories about unexpected deaths can be flooded with replies trumpeting the conspiracy theory, which go unmoderated. It’s a radical change from the earlier years of the pandemic, during which Twitter implemented new policies against health misinformation and updated them regularly, gradually finessing the wording and clarifying how the company assessed misleading information. These policies and the tactics used to enforce them tightened as the pandemic went on.
Like how the shots causing heart inflammation was far right conspiracy?
Posted on 1/26/23 at 7:32 am to Powerman
quote:
You're just intent on being stupid
Irony is ironic.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 7:57 am to Penrod
I prefer my pure conjecture at around 85%.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 8:34 am to WhiskeyThrottle
quote:
The left's messaging is incredibly consistent. They jump straight past the debate about the accuracy of the story and go straight to "we need to moderate it".
Or they call it racist and try to shame shut it down. Recent comments by Jane Fonda about pollution being caused by racism or something like that.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 9:24 am to Flats
quote:
I don't know a single person who posts here, it's just an interesting diversion for people with (mostly?) white collar jobs. Twitter, facebook; things tied to someone's identity, especially if they're attempting to attain celebrity status, are all conducive to virtue signaling. An anonymous forum?
You don't think people on Twitter virtue signal behind anonymous accounts? People virtue signal on social media, regardless of anonymity. That the noted selection effect doesn't really apply to inpatient environments, because patients don't really choose their physicians, should maybe make you think through my own experience.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 9:27 am to tadman
quote:
Or they call it racist and try to shame shut it down.
Because they have shite for ideas. When you have shite for ideas, you get world class obfuscation.
Weak people always defend the status quo.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 9:29 am to TigerDoc
quote:
But it matters a great deal on this board, right? There's a lot of virtue-signaling with regard to vaccine status with people peacocking about having been smart enough to have made the right decision from the beginning and avoided the clot shot.
Not so much "virtue signaling" , more of a "FK YOU!" to the evil pieces of shite who were accusing the non-vaxxed of murdering their Grandmothers and advocating locking them up for not bowing to the Pfizer God....
It's Social Media and anyone who takes Social Media seriously should have their head examined.
Grownups understand that message boards are a place to blow off some steam and relax....or get worked up...
Posted on 1/26/23 at 10:00 am to oogabooga68
quote:
Not so much "virtue signaling" , more of a "FK YOU!" to the evil pieces of shite who were accusing the non-vaxxed of murdering their Grandmothers and advocating locking them up for not bowing to the Pfizer God....
I think some of that is going on. I think people sometimes strut to make a public defiance of some larger cultural virtue that they reject within their subculture/identity group. You might call that "vice signaling". (whereas virtue signaling signals adherence to a group norm). I think they're related ideas.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 10:05 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
That the noted selection effect doesn't really apply to inpatient environments, because patients don't really choose their physicians,
Sure, but I meant patients who may tend to avoid hospitals altogether due to trust-loss with the whole profession of medicine or medico-industrial complex from public health on down (I know a lot of those patients sometimes end up presenting later and sicker anyway out of desperation, of course).
This post was edited on 1/26/23 at 10:11 am
Posted on 1/26/23 at 10:14 am to TigerDoc
quote:
Sure, but I meant that patients who may to avoid hospitals altogether due to trust-loss with the whole profession of medicine or medico-industrial complex from public health on down (I know a lot of those patients sometimes end up presenting later and sicker anyway out of desperation, of course)
It is entirely possible that we get patients at different phases of illness, and that correlates to how willing they are to share broad skepticism. That I can understand, but we interact with the family too, which is where the dearth of skepticism is also curious. That said, it is also generally a scary time for them as well, which might also temper their enthusiasm for saying something skeptical of the industry, but that would also serve to buttress my point that much of the skepticism is just an affectation and not something that most are willing to put into practice.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 10:24 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Because they have shite for ideas. When you have shite for ideas, you get world class obfuscation.
Weak people always defend the status quo.
Not sure what you're saying here but the comment about the status quo is not necessarily true.
People like stability and they begin to invest in "the norm" or the status quo. If you make drastic changes, people lose their investment. Ideas and innovations have to be proven before people are willing to just fling the status quo to the wind and sacrifice their investment.
Battery cars are a great example. Very few of us here actually hate battery cars. We hate that Biden and his pals are trying to force them on us when the technology is not mature yet. I'm not willing to sacrifice my livelihood by risking my crews driving long distance in an F250 with batteries. We're not there yet.
This post was edited on 1/26/23 at 10:27 am
Posted on 1/26/23 at 10:26 am to tadman
Getting vaxxed and having the big one worse
then gasping for breath in 2020 and saying I coulda shoulda.
Asking for a nurse from OLOL?
then gasping for breath in 2020 and saying I coulda shoulda.
Asking for a nurse from OLOL?
Posted on 1/26/23 at 10:34 am to crazy4lsu
I think there's something to that. There's this classic social psychology idea that "beliefs are like possessions" that can serve as identity markers and signal values about ourselves to others like possessions can social-signal, and when the context changes, the possession can have a different meaning. I think hospitals are one of those social crucibles where existential issues of illness change incentives and people's beliefs don't cash out in the same ways than they do in well-visits. I would read empirical work on this for sure.
But of course what also happens is people turn beliefs that might start like possessions into convictions, which are beliefs that are tightly bound to sense of self, and where the belief is so strongly tied to their identity it's as if losing the belief is to lose their very self. I think it really gets to us as docs when people make blind convictions that hurt their health when it would be better for their health to find room in their self-conception for a helpful treatment or preventative intervention.
But of course what also happens is people turn beliefs that might start like possessions into convictions, which are beliefs that are tightly bound to sense of self, and where the belief is so strongly tied to their identity it's as if losing the belief is to lose their very self. I think it really gets to us as docs when people make blind convictions that hurt their health when it would be better for their health to find room in their self-conception for a helpful treatment or preventative intervention.
This post was edited on 1/26/23 at 10:43 am
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