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Message
re: The Atlantic really mad at Twitter. They have no answer for #DiedSuddenly.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:01 am to TigerDoc
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:01 am to TigerDoc
quote:
But of course what also happens is people turn beliefs that might start like possessions into convictions, which are beliefs that are tightly bound to sense of self, and where the belief is so strongly tied to their identity it's as if losing the belief is to lose their very self.
Is that why you believe what you believe about the vaccine?
Or does this genetic fallacy/Carnac routine only apply to your outgroups?
1
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:03 am to TigerDoc
quote:
Sure, but I meant patients who may tend to avoid hospitals altogether due to trust-loss with the whole profession of medicine or medico-industrial complex from public health on down
I'm pretty much there, not due to COVID but other things I'm going through/been through..
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:09 am to TigerDoc
quote:
I think it really gets to us as docs when people make blind convictions that hurt their health when it would be better for their health to find room in their self-conception for a helpful treatment or preventative intervention
I think that speaks to a communication strategy for which most physicians do not receive training. We need that training, as the pandemic made clear, as even innocent things like changing a definition to more closely align with textbook definitions would be seen with skepticism when people who truly don't care about immunology see that change.
Being more conscious of rhetorical techniques is vitally important in face-to-face, but is it something I actually want to apply to online interactions, if I'm of the belief that even those who are inflated with self-righteous grievance do not actually act on that grievance in a material way?
I tend to think there's just regular bad-faith, as most who are critical of public health infrastructure would be giddy to completely dismantle it even before the pandemic. It makes references to my own rhetorical techniques of just referencing incredibly basic facts about pathology and immunology ring even more hollow, because of the fundamental belief that because those things are associated with public health authorities who mishandled the pandemic, they are also called into question. It becomes a self-referential loop where people can conveniently ignore evidence, such as the self-reported CFR from several countries which had different disease control strategies, and instead focus on very stupid things for which there is very little evidence.
I mean, in person, I don't think most people are ready for this generation of younger doctors who are definitely more confrontational precisely because of our experiences during the pandemic. If anything, those experiences have hardened my resolve to never give an inch to those who I think are operating in bad-faith. I'd suggest that mien might also serve as a self-selection mechanism for my own experiences, and not the experiences of other doctors on whom social manners are more important.
This post was edited on 1/26/23 at 11:10 am
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:12 am to Flats
This is a good question. I value public health and that's tied to my self-conception as a physician and the values I've adopted about that are at conviction-level. If I couldn't be a physician anymore, that might soften, but it's been such a central part of my life, it would be difficult to change (but I do think the self is a sort of illusion if you want to get into that).
I try not to get convicted blindly or morally entangled on particular interventions. I've been trying to get things right at the meta-level and learning to try to defer better.
And as for the genetic fallacy, all these ideas apply to my own beliefs including my experience with helpful if mean feedback I've experienced on this very board. There are smart people who are often helpful in spite of themselves (including you, Flats).
I try not to get convicted blindly or morally entangled on particular interventions. I've been trying to get things right at the meta-level and learning to try to defer better.
And as for the genetic fallacy, all these ideas apply to my own beliefs including my experience with helpful if mean feedback I've experienced on this very board. There are smart people who are often helpful in spite of themselves (including you, Flats).
This post was edited on 1/26/23 at 11:17 am
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:21 am to crazy4lsu
Good post and I can see where the younger docs are coming from. I did happen to get a lot of training on motivational interviewing which is now in my bones as a clinician. It's very labor intensive and requires a lot of practice and checking your internal emotional thermometer and it really works well in the context of long-term therapeutic relationships and it may not be practical for inpatients.
As far as online interactions, they're different in that there's no doctor-patient relationship even if we're identifying as doctors and there's also the public-stage aspect that interactions we have are viewable to the whole audience of readers, so it's definitely a whole different thing.
As far as online interactions, they're different in that there's no doctor-patient relationship even if we're identifying as doctors and there's also the public-stage aspect that interactions we have are viewable to the whole audience of readers, so it's definitely a whole different thing.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:31 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
I think that speaks to a communication strategy for which most physicians do not receive training. We need that training, as the pandemic made clear, as even innocent things like changing a definition to more closely align with textbook definitions would be seen with skepticism when people who truly don't care about immunology see that change.
The problem isn't the seemingly innocuous change of a definition. It's the blatant manipulation of data/definitions that is anything but innocuous that gives people cause to question everything - including the "innocent" things.
You cannot call a murder/suicide two Covid deaths, and have "Covid deaths" mean what they did in rationalizing all the BS Covid response and expect the medical industry's credibility to remain intact. You play the gaslighting game, and it causes a lot of people to become skeptical of nearly everything related to medicine. Stories like Purdue/oxycontin and statins stories then find a wider audience.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:34 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
like changing a definition to more closely align with textbook definitions would be seen with skepticism when people who truly don't care about immunology see that change.
Hahaha....yeah, that's the ticket.....
You guys are never at fault, you are never dishonest, nor are your intentions ever nefarious.
Do you at least admit that needlessly changing that definition under cover of night in the midst of a world-crippling "pandemic" was and incredibly STUPID idea?
Just kidding, I already know what you are going to say.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:36 am to David_DJS
quote:
The problem isn't the seemingly innocuous change of a definition.
That definition change didn't occur in a vacuum.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:39 am to David_DJS
quote:
It's the blatant manipulation of data/definitions that is anything but innocuous that gives people cause to question everything - including the "innocent" things.
No, no, no...its the fault of the bumpkins for not simply falling in line and understanding that the "experts" never lie.
I mean we're up to page nine of these two jerking each other, spewing techno-jargon yet STILL missing the point: The mistrust of the Medical Community that came to a head during Covid was ENTIRELY the fault of the Medical Community.
They could have spoken out en masse against accredited people having their lives destroyed for not toeing the company line but they were too cowardly, greedy and dishonest to do so.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:43 am to David_DJS
quote:
The problem isn't the seemingly innocuous change of a definition. It's the blatant manipulation of data/definitions that is anything but innocuous that gives people cause to question everything - including the "innocent" things.
And what has the net effect of that questioning been?
quote:
You cannot call a murder/suicide two Covid deaths, and have "Covid deaths" mean what they did in rationalizing all the BS Covid response and expect the medical industry's credibility to remain intact.
But what if in my position, I don't have to care about the credibility of the entire industry? It's not like me repeating incredibly basic aspects of pathology and immunology is going to convince them. Do they want someone with credentials to tell them their wild rhetorical style, driven by emotion as it is, is okay? I honestly don't know. I'm at the point where, because of the relative acuity of cases we see, it truly doesn't matter. The arguments about credibility are for you and your feelings about the profession. I wasn't involved in any of that, in fact I was critical of several aspects, but those critiques don't seem to hold weight when people are more interested in ascribing to me positions I did not hold as a proxy for the entire industry.
So what will happen is people will continue to say several things which are some of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my life, and I'll continue to correct them, and instead of responding to the actual substance, I'll get responses about 'where pathology led us' and screeds about the need for an entire industry to issue a 'mea culpa.' Rinse and repeat.
quote:
You play the gaslighting game, and it causes a lot of people to become skeptical of nearly everything related to medicine. Stories like Purdue/oxycontin and statins stories then find a wider audience.
I wish we could be honest about the root cause of this, but like I've said, you don't want to fix the institutions. What you want is an outlet for whatever anger you may feel.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:47 am to oogabooga68
quote:
The mistrust of the Medical Community that came to a head during Covid was ENTIRELY the fault of the Medical Community.
Nah.
quote:
They could have spoken out en masse against accredited people having their lives destroyed for not toeing the company line but they were too cowardly, greedy and dishonest to do so.
Lol and then what? What if it is you guys are the ones who were wrong to underrated the devastation a virus with an elevated CFR can cause? I suspect there will never be any introspection on your part and you'll blame and victimize and blame and victimize and insist to me, someone who has seen patients die from COVID, that it must have been something other than COVID because a time period in the past where deaths not related to COVID were classed as COVID.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:47 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
I wish we could be honest about the root cause of this
Self-inflicted wounds are the cause.
quote:
But what if in my position, I don't have to care about the credibility of the entire industry?
Then why are you still here whining about this?
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:48 am to oogabooga68
quote:
They could have spoken out en masse against accredited people having their lives destroyed for not toeing the company line but they were too cowardly, greedy and dishonest to do so.
Ding, ding, ding!! They caved to money and pressure from their superiors to go along with the narrative.
The science was corrupted by those who provide the funding for research.
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:49 am to oogabooga68
quote:
Self-inflicted wounds are the cause.
Great answer that doesn't mean anything. Just fantastic.
quote:
Then why are you still here whining about this?
Because I'm on a poop break? Do I need your permission to post? Does the stupidity of the medical industry in the beginning of the pandemic justify the continue stupidity of whatever you guys are?
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:49 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Nah.
Yeah...
quote:
Lol and then what?
Then we can begin to have an actual conversation instead of being lectured by a bunch of Narcissistic Medical Students/Doctors using lofty rhetoric and techno-jargon to call people who disagree with them "bumpkins".
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:49 am to oogabooga68
quote:
The mistrust of the Medical Community that came to a head during Covid was ENTIRELY the fault of the Medical Community.
This is not true. Crazy has talked about regulatory capture and his arguments are nuanced, but include significant problems within medicine. I don't think you can say that it is ENTIRELY the fault of the medical community when items like the anti-vaccine propaganda film that's the point of the OP is given high credence and little criticized in this community which does seem to influence people's attitudes and beliefs. Anti-vaccine prop causes moral panics that can affect likelihood to vaccinate and differences in real-world disease outcomes. Doctors and others should bring this up and so should non-doctors.
This post was edited on 1/26/23 at 11:51 am
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:50 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Great answer that doesn't mean anything.
No, you just don't understand or won't admit that the mortal wound inflicted upon the "expert class" during the Great Covid Gold Rush was entirely self-inflicted....
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:51 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Because I'm on a poop break?
I gathered that from the shitty nature of your denials....
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:51 am to oogabooga68
quote:
Then we can begin to have an actual conversation
I don't think an 'actual conversation' is really useful if it is with the likes of you, to be real.
quote:
using lofty rhetoric and techno-jargon to call people who disagree with them "bumpkins".
My sweet little bumpkin, I've used incredibly basic terminology that is 1st year medical school stuff and secondly, in American English, periods go inside the quotation mark 'bumpkin.'
Posted on 1/26/23 at 11:53 am to oogabooga68
quote:
Self-inflicted wounds are the cause.
The medical industry is built on utilizing systems instead of actual individual care. Treating 360 million people in one system will always result in failures.
Particularly when many are just spitballin.
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