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Started By
Message
re: Griffin’s Best Move
Posted on 2/5/22 at 3:29 pm to GOP_Tiger
Posted on 2/5/22 at 3:29 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
I view AD for BI as almost an even trade by itself. BI is still just 24 and improving as a player. That's before you add in Hart, Jaxson, NAW, and the future picks and swaps that we still have.
That’s true to an extent, but we could have absolutely raped the Lakers in that trade if he didn’t mismanage the assets.
He left at least a first on the table for Ball from the suns or other better assets than what he eventually traded him for.
Passed on Garland when he knew the Balls uneasiness of being in a small market and injury history. And Jrue not really being a true pg. Just staying put at 4 woukd have been the more logical choice majority of gm’s make. And it would have given him time to asses who to keep out of Ball and Garkandcwhen his contract was up.
We wound have absolutely killed that trade getting two all stars for AD along with possibly two other picks that may be in the lotto. Not to mention other firsts or assets for Ball and Hart instead of absolutely nothing for Ball.
This post was edited on 2/5/22 at 3:31 pm
2
Posted on 2/5/22 at 3:40 pm to corndeaux
quote:
But every team has draft whiffs on a regular basis.
so many teams spend two or three picks to move up.
the 4 for 8 and 17 was notably a bet on long odds.
people still making excuses for hayes based on not being such a much in high school. come off it. he has 5+ years of hoops. his bbiq is low.
what possessed griffin to bet on a guy that the ncaa analysts made excuses for.
he may be a good starter soon.
but in fact 2.5 seasons went by before he can trusted. a waste of years.
he was not there. 2 seasons a mini bust.
naws pick i understood. i saw him do 35 points in college. his limitations are well stated here.
a maybe.
people seem done with jv long term. 31.
so then its #17 tm3 vs #10 ziaire williams.
z williams is in rotation and steps up if starters injured. tm3 will improve. but so will ziaire.
ziaire will get on the floor with games on the line in 2022 playoffs.
jones is the only winner pick. as luck would have it it looks like the pels will hit at least 10th. we will see which young ones get run and how they do in must win games. im still hoping the hidden zion trick lands on new Orleans 10 games to go and they get a playoff series with zion ready for 25 minutes.
Posted on 2/5/22 at 5:08 pm to Townedrunkard
quote:
That’s true to an extent, but we could have absolutely raped the Lakers in that trade if he didn’t mismanage the assets.
He left at least a first on the table for Ball from the suns or other better assets than what he eventually traded him for.
Passed on Garland when he knew the Balls uneasiness of being in a small market and injury history. And Jrue not really being a true pg. Just staying put at 4 woukd have been the more logical choice majority of gm’s make. And it would have given him time to asses who to keep out of Ball and Garland when his contract was up.
We wound have absolutely killed that trade getting two all stars for AD along with possibly two other picks that may be in the lotto. Not to mention other firsts or assets for Ball and Hart instead of absolutely nothing for Ball.
But you just proved my point. It's unfair to take all of the good for granted and blast Griffin for the mistakes. There's just this attitude of (not necessarily from you) "Yeah, BI is great, but we expected that." And the truth is that right now, no GM in the league who had BI would trade him to get AD. But when we got BI, there were concerns about his medical history, and there were a lot of doubters. This board had a big argument over whether he or Lonzo would end up being a better player.
So, I submit that David Griffin did kill the AD trade. The goal of that trade was to get a star as good as AD, and we have already done that, in my opinion. No, Ingram is not yet as good as peak AD, in pure basketball terms, but AD never showed the leadership or attitude that BI has, and intangibles have to count for something.
Then, you add in Hart, Jaxson, NAW, and the future picks and swaps that we still have, and you have to say that the AD trade was an outstanding success. The AD trade was Griffin's best move.
Posted on 2/5/22 at 5:34 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
But you just proved my point. It's unfair to take all of the good for granted and blast Griffin for the mistakes. There's just this attitude of (not necessarily from you) "Yeah, BI is great, but we expected that." And the truth is that right now, no GM in the league who had BI would trade him to get AD. But when we got BI, there were concerns about his medical history, and there were a lot of doubters. This board had a big argument over whether he or Lonzo would end up being a better player
You giving him way way to much credit. What other team out there was he going to trade AD to? The only other team mentioned with the assets were the Celtics and I was one of the main ones that wanted Tatum on here. And he’s proven to be the better player. I’m not sure if he was available or not or if he was they werent putting much else in the trade.
AD forced him to make the trade with the Lakers. The same players he traded for were also made available to Dell. The asset that really pushed the needle to them was the #4 when they lucked up and Griff pretty much blew that.
I’ll give him some credit b/c he got all of the pick swaps and extra first rounder out of them and it’s very unlikely Dell could’ve pulled that off. Think two were offered to Dell and he managed to get 3.
He gets about the same amount of credit for trading for BI as he does for drafting Zion in my eyes….
This post was edited on 2/5/22 at 5:37 pm
Posted on 2/5/22 at 5:46 pm to Townedrunkard
quote:
Passed on Garland when he knew the Balls uneasiness of being in a small market and injury history. And Jrue not really being a true pg.
This is hindsight is 20/20. Griffin was (hilariously) hyping Holiday as a MVP candidate, centerpiece of the franchise. If you want any chance of making it work with Ball, drafting a PG at #4 blows that up immediately.
quote:
Just staying put at 4 woukd have been the more logical choice majority of gm’s make. And it would have given him time to asses who to keep out of Ball and Garkandcwhen his contract was up.
Staying put would have been better. No guarantee he would have taken Garland though. Again, hindsight is 20/20, except for the majority of this board who started saying they wanted Garland all along 3 months ago. I just hope someone on Airline is reading the scouting reports posted here to Griffin.
quote:
he didn’t mismanage the assets.
You get as many assets as possible because you will miss and/or there will be bad luck. This is not a science. Griffin has made some self inflicted mistakes to be sure.
But look at the Celtics, a well respected front office, and the haul they got from the Nets trade and tell me how the "greatest trade of all time" worked out for them.
Posted on 2/5/22 at 7:14 pm to corndeaux
quote:
But look at the Celtics, a well respected front office, and the haul they got from the Nets trade and tell me how the "greatest trade of all time" worked out for them.
well they got Tatum and brown for pierce and garnett (after they’d already won a ring with them). Garnett retired shortly thereafter and pierce became a hired gun role player
that’s pretty damn good, not sure why you’d use that example. Celtics have been a regular playoff presence and have had some shitty luck otherwise (Irving being a choad in particular).
I’d trade the pels last decade for the Celtics’ every time
griffin has failed at his job. There’s no sugar coating that. It’s his job to maximize his assets and he’s been flailing around ever since the AD trade. He’s drafted poorly and traded poorly
Posted on 2/5/22 at 7:30 pm to GOP_Tiger
AD is a piece of shite beta who cannot stay healthy. We may look back and say the trade was a major win for the Pels.
Posted on 2/5/22 at 7:40 pm to corndeaux
While one can argue Adams was a miss. Jonas was a huge win when you look at that trade in a vacuum.
Posted on 2/5/22 at 7:56 pm to cgrand
quote:
griffin has failed at his job. There’s no sugar coating that.
Unfortunately the state of team often feels like collateral damage to the justified hate Griff gets here. The assets haven't been maximized, but I'd argue the return on an All NBA player and fringe All Star that forced their way out has been good.
- Being bad enough to win the lottery (Zion)
- All Star and still rising (Ingram)
- Fringe All Star (Jonas was essentially acquired with a Bucks and Lakers pick)
- Good Starter (Herb)
- Fringe Starter (Hart)
- Starter? (Jaxson)
- 3 remaining 1sts (not counting 2022 Lakers pick)
- 3 remaining swaps
- multiple 2nds
He blew #4 and Lonzo, but that's still quite a haul. And no, I'm not saying Griff should keep his job, I still think his optimism bias is dangerous and worry about what the next week will bring. But he is lucky enough that I wouldn't fire him until after the lottery, and if they win the lottery again...
This post was edited on 2/5/22 at 7:59 pm
Posted on 2/6/22 at 2:08 pm to cgrand
quote:
they got Tatum and brown for pierce and garnett
Great picks and inspired choices. James Young and trading for Kyrie not so much.
quote:
not sure why you’d use that example
because
quote:
have had some shitty luck otherwise
Which is the entire point. Celtics have had better injury luck, had a better trade, a better FO, and still have been a cute story in a shitty Eastern conference for years, despite all the Boston media hype. Basically an east coast Blazers even after the "most lopsided trade in history."
This isnt a videogame. And I'm not even arguing that Griffin is really good. Rather even the best GMs, who pull off the best trades, have misses and are at the mercy of bad luck even when they think they made the right decision. Playing the woulda, coulda, shoulda game with every move is a recipe for driving yourself insane
Posted on 2/6/22 at 2:49 pm to corndeaux
quote:
This is hindsight is 20/20.
So you saying Balls past injury history with the Lakers and his dads desire for him to be in a big market for the big baller brand is hindsight? You dead wrong. Both were said numerous times over before and after the trade.
I said both of these things in one of the pre draft threads as one of the reasons to draft Garland.
And yes Griff was hyping up Jrue, but everyone on this board knew it was a matter of time he was going to get traded. Majority of the team is teens or early twenties and Jrue was going into his 30’s. No way was he going to be apart of the long term future.
This post was edited on 2/6/22 at 2:56 pm
Posted on 2/6/22 at 3:16 pm to corndeaux
quote:
Celtics have had better injury luck, had a better trade, a better FO, and still have been a cute story in a shitty Eastern conference for years, despite all the Boston media hype. Basically an east coast Blazers even after the "most lopsided trade in history."
and I’d still trade recent history and current rosters with them in a second. They are a winning team that is enjoyable to watch and easy to root for
maybe they don’t win a ring but neither will we
This post was edited on 2/6/22 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 2/6/22 at 4:54 pm to Townedrunkard
quote:
So you saying Balls past injury history with the Lakers and his dads desire for him to be in a big market for the big baller brand is hindsight?
No. These were known issues. What's 20/20 is saying Ball was never going to stay or work out, ergo they should have drafted his replacement as soon as he arrived in NO.
That is a recipe for disaster because these are human beings.
Posted on 2/6/22 at 4:58 pm to cgrand
quote:
They are a winning team that is enjoyable to watch and easy to root for
And the Pels have been right there when Zion is actually healthy.
His health is frustrating, for sure. And if you want to be mad at Griffin for Zion's health not being as good as Tatum's, have at it
Posted on 2/6/22 at 5:03 pm to corndeaux
I feel like his inability to connect with Zion and properly motivate him can be blamed to a certain extent.
Posted on 2/6/22 at 6:37 pm to corndeaux
quote:
No. These were known issues. What's 20/20 is saying Ball was never going to stay or work out, ergo they should have drafted his replacement as soon as he arrived in NO.
It’s called hedging your bet. Better odds of one of them working out. Cavs had no reason to draft Garland after just drafting Sexton. Think they regret it?
So you must think that is why Ball wanted out because we drafted Kira?
If a player is that soft and scared of competition, I really don’t want him on our team…..
This post was edited on 2/6/22 at 6:39 pm
Posted on 2/6/22 at 7:32 pm to Townedrunkard
quote:
It’s called hedging your bet. Better odds of one of them working out. Cavs had no reason to draft Garland after just drafting Sexton
Again, ignoring the reality. There was not the 30mpg rookie Garland got with rebuilding/tanking Cleveland on a Pels team that had Holiday, Ball, Reddick and was openly gunning for a playoff spot.
If you want to claim you wanted Garland back in 2019, congrats. You're a genius.
They made other bets that didn't work out they way they wanted. Griffin whiffed on them. It sucks for us that he bet wrong and Garland has blossomed.
Acting like passing on him at the time was the dumbest decision ever made is all hindsight. And if we're playing the hindsight game, there is no guarantee that Garland develops into the player he is now in NO.
Posted on 2/6/22 at 7:35 pm to corndeaux
And if you want to argue the Pels should have opted for a slower rebuild around Zion, Ingram, Garland, great.
That's a reasonable choice they could have made, which had its own risks and rewards
The end of the day, Zion being out is the single biggest problem the team has. When he plays, they're .500. He is the fulcrum around which all of this turns. Until he is healthy, this is all killing time and dick measuring
That's a reasonable choice they could have made, which had its own risks and rewards
The end of the day, Zion being out is the single biggest problem the team has. When he plays, they're .500. He is the fulcrum around which all of this turns. Until he is healthy, this is all killing time and dick measuring
This post was edited on 2/6/22 at 7:36 pm
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