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Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:00 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
"Maybe I was wrong and not bringing Donovan was a good idea. We made it further than I thought."
How is this true? Donovan could not have possibly made the roster worse.
quote:
I don't see how a positive outcome for the US doesn't at least neutralize the criticism.
Because it would have made us better.
quote:
Like I said Davis was a weird choice instead of Donovan. And we aren't certain that it was Landon or Davis right? Maybe Davis had a spot for a completely different reason and it was Landon or Mix/Zusi.
Supposedly, Jurgen only saw Donovan as a forward, and he took four guys in front of him (Jozy, Clint, Aron, and Wondo). As Sheep said, this is a thinly veiled cover-up.
Plus, our players are not limited to what they are listed as. Yedlin was listed as a defender.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:02 pm to Broski
quote:
Ok, that has been the crux of my argument since day 1. Essentially, that is all I have been arguing.
And it only works if you're CERTAIN that it was LD or Davis. And you can't even be certain of that. Like Vicks said, starting Davis against Germany might have been the only reason we brought Davis. It didn't work. Ok. We still advanced, time to deal with the situation at hand, this is why we pay Jurgen, and he's been pretty good so far.
quote:
Well now the pressure is on Klinsmann to find somebody to help out on the attack from the left side.
And if you believe he's trying to win, he'll make either personnel or tactical changes to fix it.
quote:
But you're argument was that Klinsmann was done with Donovan after his sabbatical.
That isn't my argument at all. I'm not dealing in absolutes or thinking I know more than I actually do. My argument is that Jurgen is trying to win and he has the team's best interests in mind.
quote:
If that was the case, why call him in to the Gold Cup,
Because he thought Donovan was a good choice for the Gold Cup and fit his strategy.
quote:
start him in our biggest WCQ's
Because he thought Donovan would be a good start for those and fit his strategy.
quote:
then give him the armband for the January camp?
Because he thought Donovan would be a good leader for that specific time and...fit his overall strategy.
These are all decision points for Jurgen to make, and I want to think every single time he made the decision he did it was because he wanted to win. That's it. And the same goes for the Cup.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:02 pm to uway
quote:
Y'all have completely vilified Klinsmann for dropping your hero Landon.
That I have to point that out is amazing.
Pretty sure that is only me. The cult of personality he has gained by a lot of people is equally annoying.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:04 pm to Freauxzen
So if Donovan was good enough for all of those instances, why was he not good enough for the World Cup?
Do you see how this doesn't make logical sense?
Do you see how this doesn't make logical sense?
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:06 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
Omar Gonzalez was not in peak shape due to an injury, but I do not think anyone questioned his inclusion on the 23.
This is different than not working hard is the reason that you are not at your own, personal peak fitness/ form.
quote:
Because the resulting choices are so far inferior as players.
Lets say Davis was always the plan. To me, while yes this is slightly obvious, but maybe JK with all the other noise, decline in form, and personal dislike, decided that this is not really the case.
maybe it wasn't a yes or no decsion but a scale
|--------------|-------------|--------------|------------|------------|-------------|
coming_______Prbly____50/50____maybe__doubtful__ NOT
and each little decision that donovan made pushed him further and further right. personal dislike puts him at first line on left. not in good form at second. Not a personal peak of form and fitness at third. back ups are young and not that bad anymore put him at forth. etc.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:09 pm to petar
I roll with arguably greatest coach in American soccer history, Jurgen Klinsmann.
I applaud Landon for his previous accomplishments, and wish him the best of luck going forward.
I applaud Landon for his previous accomplishments, and wish him the best of luck going forward.
This post was edited on 6/30/14 at 12:11 pm
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:10 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
Pretty sure that is only me.
You're just the only one that admits it. Well, you and BamaChick.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:11 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
How is this true? Donovan could not have possibly made the roster worse.
Why does Donovan matter if Jurgen does exactly what he is paid to do, go as far into the Cup run as we can? If we have an expected, or better than expected, result in the cup, why does Donovan matter so much? If we beat Belgium, WHY DOES DONOVAN MATTER? That will be a Top 10 team and a trip to the quarters. How can Jurgen satisfy you?
This makes no sense. You want the US to win with Donovan only?
quote:
Because it would have made us better.
So you know more than Jurgen? You know what happened in every camp? You know every single word that was uttered between Donovan and Jurgen? You know, 150% sure, that Donovan was ready to play 5 games in 2 and a half weeks in a South American Climate?
You can guess, but you don't KNOW. So:
quote:
Because it would have made us better.
Is not necessarily true.
quote:
Supposedly, Jurgen only saw Donovan as a forward, and he took four guys in front of him (Jozy, Clint, Aron, and Wondo). As Sheep said, this is a thinly veiled cover-up.
There's that word again. We just don't know. Therefore we cant know if Donovan fit in every scenario.
Therefore, the only thing we can judge Jurgen on is the result. And if we have a better than expected result then not bringing Donovan was AT THE VERY LEAST, a net neutral. And that's being generous.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:11 pm to uway
quote:
You're just the only one that admits it. Well, you and BamaChick.
I have given Jurgen a shite ton of credit. Doesn't mean I can't be puzzled by some decisions.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:13 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
So you know more than Jurgen? You know what happened in every camp? You know every single word that was uttered between Donovan and Jurgen? You know, 150% sure, that Donovan was ready to play 5 games in 2 and a half weeks in a South American Climate?
You can guess, but you don't KNOW. So:
This is really what gets me.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:19 pm to Broski
quote:
So if Donovan was good enough for all of those instances, why was he not good enough for the World Cup?
Because the World Cup is different from a bunch of WCQ's, the Gold cup and camp.
Again, my assumption is that Jurgen wants to win and he made decisions based on that fact.
quote:
Do you see how this doesn't make logical sense?
It makes complete logical sense if you believe that:
1) Jurgen wants to win/go as far into the cup as possible
2) Jurgen has a plan and that each player fits into an overall scheme
3) Jurgen makes every decision based off of these two things.
Again, why didn't he bring Shea, he was on the GC squad. Corona. Heck even Eddie Johnson was there.
So tell me this: Why didn't Corona or Johnson or Shea go to the Cup. They were on the GC Squad. They were good enough to win there too. Right? So only the GC squad should make it. He felt they were good enough.
If you believe that people who were good enough to win before should go to, I don't know how big your WC squad would be.
If you believe that each of these times, WCQs, the GC, camp, the World Cup, include different decisions, different effects, different strategies, then this is completely logical.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:21 pm to Broski
quote:
I have given Jurgen a shite ton of credit. Doesn't mean I can't be puzzled by some decisions.
Granted, you have.
I meant for this decision specifically. You and others seem to leave no room for the possibility that Jurgen acted in good faith or had good reason to leave Landon off. That is vilifying him, because you don't have enough evidence to prove that he acted in bad faith.
Conversely, y'all place no blame on Landon and go as far as ridiculing the very idea that he maybe did less than what he could have to earn a spot on the team.
IMO, if you can look at Landon's words and actions over the past few years and only find fault with Jurgen for Landon not being in Brazil, then you aren't being objective.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:59 pm to uway
quote:
IMO, if you can look at Landon's words and actions over the past few years and only find fault with Jurgen for Landon not being in Brazil, then you aren't being objective.
By typing this, you aren't being objective, either. It goes both ways.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:00 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Because the World Cup is different from a bunch of WCQ's, the Gold cup and camp.
Again, my assumption is that Jurgen wants to win and he made decisions based on that fact.
That makes little sense, considering Besler, Zusi, Mix etc. were all a part of those instances.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:09 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
It makes complete logical sense if you believe that:
1) Jurgen wants to win/go as far into the cup as possible
This is where the Donovan decision blows my mind. Obviously, Jurgen wants to go as far as possible. In order to maximize your chances, you bring the best 23 players to accomplish that. We did not do that.
quote:
If you believe that people who were good enough to win before should go to, I don't know how big your WC squad would be.
It would be still be 23 players. It would include Landon and Boyd over Green and Davis.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:12 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
In order to maximize your chances, you bring the best 23 players to accomplish tha
That is not as true of a statement as you make it out to be.. better players get left off rosters/ cut for all kind of on and off the field reasons.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:15 pm to Broski
Every coach or manager who is worth anything, good enough to have the job in the first place, evaluates his talent according to the time, place, and opponents on his upcoming schedule, and the definition of success for the next objective.
So the 23 we had for the Gold Cup were chosen for that competition, at that time against the opposition therein. For the WCQ, the same, who was available, who was the competition, where was it, etc. Are you lot going to seriously tell me that Jogi Löw should bring the 23 he brought to Euro 2012, because well, they were good enough for Euro 2012? I mean, look, Miroslav Klose almost didn't make this team, and in fact has been a sub. By the calculus of this discussion here on the S.B. at T.D., Klose should be starting up top, and not on the bench, because he's the best ever goal-scorer for his country and the W.C. Right? No.
Yes, I realize GC was just a year ago, and that makes CONCACAF different from UEFA, but you're applying the same reasoning, when you argue in Donovan's favor simply because of "time-served" and the last time he played. Yes, I'm puzzled by Klinsmann's decision, yes, it's hard to see a person like LD left off at this stage. I tend to like and have an affinity for long-standing veterans at most levels of sport. But there comes that time, when it's time for things to change, and it's difficult to embrace.
Klinsmann, who knows why, felt that L.D. was not suitable to THIS tournament against Ghana, Portugal and Germany, at this time in Brazil at the World Cup. Who knows, exactly why? It's great to discuss, it, but the fact is the manager paid to make the decision made one, a hard one, one that has cost him dearly in the court of public opinion and the media. I have to respect him, some, for that courage and standing by his coaching convictions.
So the 23 we had for the Gold Cup were chosen for that competition, at that time against the opposition therein. For the WCQ, the same, who was available, who was the competition, where was it, etc. Are you lot going to seriously tell me that Jogi Löw should bring the 23 he brought to Euro 2012, because well, they were good enough for Euro 2012? I mean, look, Miroslav Klose almost didn't make this team, and in fact has been a sub. By the calculus of this discussion here on the S.B. at T.D., Klose should be starting up top, and not on the bench, because he's the best ever goal-scorer for his country and the W.C. Right? No.
Yes, I realize GC was just a year ago, and that makes CONCACAF different from UEFA, but you're applying the same reasoning, when you argue in Donovan's favor simply because of "time-served" and the last time he played. Yes, I'm puzzled by Klinsmann's decision, yes, it's hard to see a person like LD left off at this stage. I tend to like and have an affinity for long-standing veterans at most levels of sport. But there comes that time, when it's time for things to change, and it's difficult to embrace.
Klinsmann, who knows why, felt that L.D. was not suitable to THIS tournament against Ghana, Portugal and Germany, at this time in Brazil at the World Cup. Who knows, exactly why? It's great to discuss, it, but the fact is the manager paid to make the decision made one, a hard one, one that has cost him dearly in the court of public opinion and the media. I have to respect him, some, for that courage and standing by his coaching convictions.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:23 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
And if we have a better than expected result then not bringing Donovan was AT THE VERY LEAST, a net neutral. And that's being generous.
I disagree wholly. Our results have been fine, but the process has been ugly. 31/32 in possession through the group stages. Thoroughly dominated in two of the three games. We are still the same team playing Bob ball.
I am ecstatic to get the four points and be in this fixture against Belgium, but let's not act like we are dominating and playing at a significantly higher level than in the past.
We have a better player pool than ever before and we have done admirably for losing Jozy and getting two broken noses. I think we are doing almost the best we can with our current resources.
quote:
Why does Donovan matter if Jurgen does exactly what he is paid to do, go as far into the Cup run as we can? If we have an expected, or better than expected, result in the cup, why does Donovan matter so much? If we beat Belgium, WHY DOES DONOVAN MATTER? That will be a Top 10 team and a trip to the quarters. How can Jurgen satisfy you?
This makes no sense. You want the US to win with Donovan only?
They are separate entities. It can still be a bad decision even if we do well. The Donovan decision does not mean the World Cup was a success or failure. It was a bad decision. Any shred of doubt of that was obliterated when Brad Davis started and was awful.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:24 pm to Broski
quote:
That makes little sense, considering Besler, Zusi, Mix etc. were all a part of those instances.
Which is why the problem is that you look at everything from either the same lens (GC = WC, which is not true) or some singular process rather than individual events within a larger process.
Besler, Meix and Zusi fit Jurgen's WC plans. Donovan did not. Neither did Johnson or Shea or Corona. It's pretty simple.
This post was edited on 6/30/14 at 1:25 pm
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