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Message
re: SBI: Donovan admits to initial bitterness towards USMNT
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:46 am to Vicks Kennel Club
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:46 am to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
Vicks Kennel Club
Why do you think LD was not brought?
JK is not retarded. JK knows exactly how it is at the world cup.
2
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:48 am to Vicks Kennel Club
First, know that I don't necessarily think it was the right decision. What i don't think is Jurgen did this out of some kind of jealousy or because he doesn't want to win. I think he was honestly in a TOUGH spot. He made a call, and he shouldn't get SO much flack for it. A little? Sure. But the fact that we are STILL talking about this, and we have a good shot of making the quarters is too much in my opinion.
Hindsight is 20/20. Bringing him in the first place creates problems. You're honestly going to tell me that if:
1) Jurgen brings Donovan
2) Jozy doesn't get injured
3) Donovan sits the bench
That everyone would have kept quiet? Really?
I don't think Donovan is still at that great level, but he's still solid. I do agree that bringing Davis instead is a weird move.
That's fair. And had we had a 0-3 run at the cup, you might have a better argument. But we're here. We can beat Belgium. Let's keep thinking positive.
quote:
Bringing Landon and using as a sub (which obviously would have helped, especially after Jozy went down) would have caused infinitely less controversy than not bringing him in the first place.
Hindsight is 20/20. Bringing him in the first place creates problems. You're honestly going to tell me that if:
1) Jurgen brings Donovan
2) Jozy doesn't get injured
3) Donovan sits the bench
That everyone would have kept quiet? Really?
quote:
Landon's first touch is so far and ahead anyone else we have ever produced that I am still shocked that Jurgen does not rate him higher. It was beyond apparent that he could do things no one else on our team could do even the first team I watched the US play, and I am not talking about skills that have waned. We are certainly in a position where his first touch and creativity would have been helpful.
I don't think Donovan is still at that great level, but he's still solid. I do agree that bringing Davis instead is a weird move.
quote:
I would have been super butthurt if we did bring any of our critical pieces to the World Cup in Howard, Dempsey, Bradley, Jozy, Fabian, Jones, Cameron, Besler, or Donovan. It just really stung that it was also my favorite player.
That's fair. And had we had a 0-3 run at the cup, you might have a better argument. But we're here. We can beat Belgium. Let's keep thinking positive.
This post was edited on 6/30/14 at 10:49 am
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:49 am to petar
quote:
Why do you think LD was not brought?
JK is not retarded. JK knows exactly how it is at the world cup.
What are you implying?
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:58 am to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
Bringing up dedication is a weak arse point when he has put in more work than anyone else for the USMNT. He has 156 caps, which is more than anyone at the entire World Cup (well, now Casillas hit 156 in Spain's three and out).
So why don't we bring a team of geezers who have 1oo caps? Bring in Cobi and Stewart? Yes Donovan was dedicated 110%. And he still probably is. A little. But the sabbatical raises enough question to warrant hesitation of the mental fortitude to win these games. Donovan might also stress himself out about these games, that could be part of it too. Maybe Jurgen thinks that Donovan would try to do TOO much when he can't handle it. Cna Donovan handle NOT being the focal point?
quote:
Dedication is irrelevant to bringing the best 23.
So if our best 23 are 23 keepers, we should bring 23 keepers because they are our best, and not bring a full team?
We pay Jurgen a ton of money to:
1) Put together 23 players who can play as a TEAM and win games at the Cup, and maybe the Cup itself.
2) Make tough decisions
3) Shape our program
He made a tough call, and we got out of the group of death, what else do people want?
quote:
If it mattered, then Timmy Chandler would have had his citizenship revoked.
Because are backs are far weaker than our Mids. This makes some sense. (Before the Cup, Run DMB has helped assuage that idea.)
Simple question, if we beat Belgium and take Argentina to the wire, maybe 2-1 or 2-2 and a PK loss:
1) Do you really think Donovan is the difference?
2) Are we still going to talk about Donovan not being there?
3) Will Jurgen ever get credit if he gets out of a Group with Germany, Portugal and our nemesis Ghana, beat the current hot team in Belgium and play well against an extremely strong South American team and the world's best player?
This is a very realistic scenario.
This post was edited on 6/30/14 at 11:01 am
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:59 am to Freauxzen
quote:
Because are backs are far weaker than our Mids. This makes some sense.
You do realize there is a discussion going on 1 post down about how we have nobody that can play on the left wing, right?
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:00 am to Freauxzen
quote:
And had we had a 0-3 run at the cup, you might have a better argument.
I really do not agree with this viewpoint. It was a bad decision regardless.
quote:
I don't think Donovan is still at that great level, but he's still solid. I do agree that bringing Davis instead is a weird move.
I was specifically bringing up skills that have not really declined. Even at 31 or 32, he is still fast as frick. Everyone loved to shite on his fitness and declining pace, and neither of these were real issues.
quote:
But the fact that we are STILL talking about this, and we have a good shot of making the quarters is too much in my opinion.
I do not start these threads. I started one thread on the day of the decision. It is other people who want to bring it up more.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:01 am to Freauxzen
quote:
1) Do you really think Donovan is the difference?
If it goes to PK's, his absence could very well be. Not to mention the fact he is a better left winger than Davis.
quote:
2) Are we still going to talk about Donovan not being there?
Depends on how we lose.
quote:
3) Will Jurgen ever get credit if he gets out of a Group with Germany, Portugal and our nemesis Ghana, beat the current hot team in Belgium and play well against an extremely strong South American team and the world's best player?
I have no problem giving JK credit for that. Doesn't mean Donovan's omission was any less puzzling. Especially considering how terrible Davis looked on Thursday.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:02 am to Broski
quote:
What are you implying?
That the reason that LD was not brought has nothing to do with on the field reasons.
I don't understand why it is still being brought up. Everyone on this board knows he is a better player than Evans.
Plus i really wanted to know why VicksKennel... thinks he was left. I know he hates the decision and havent think i have heard why he thinks JK made it.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:03 am to petar
quote:
That the reason that LD was not brought has nothing to do with on the field reasons.
What do you think the reasons were then?
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:04 am to Drew Orleans
quote:
I wish he would shut the frick up and stop making appearances until after the cup.
You feel better now?
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:04 am to Broski
quote:
You do realize there is a discussion going on 1 post down about how we have nobody that can play on the left wing, right?
Uh yeah. No duh. So Jurgen/team have to compensate and figure it out how to fix it. Again, this is why we pay him/them.
Hindsight. 20/20.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:04 am to petar
quote:
Why do you think LD was not brought?
No one knows exactly. I tend to think it was partially a personal decision because nothing else adds up.
I do not think Jurgen is an idiot. I think he made one mind-blowing, awful decision (not taking Landon) and one dumb choice (starting Brad Davis against Germany). Otherwise, he has had a fairly successful tenure as the USMNT coach.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:05 am to Freauxzen
quote:
Uh yeah. No duh. So Jurgen/team have to compensate and figure it out how to fix it. Again, this is why we pay him/them.
Hindsight. 20/20.
Your point was that Chandler being brought in made sense because our wingbacks were weaker than our outside mids.
That makes no sense.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:08 am to Freauxzen
quote:
So why don't we bring a team of geezers who have 1oo caps?
You brought up a point questioning the dedicaiton of a guy who has been more or less the face of the national team for basically a dozen years. I do not why you are taking everything so extremely literally.
quote:
So if our best 23 are 23 keepers, we should bring 23 keepers because they are our best, and not bring a full team?
Come on, man. Do you even want to have a discussion? You know what I mean.
quote:
This is a very realistic scenario.
I agree with Broski's answers on these.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:08 am to Broski
quote:
What do you think the reasons were then?
Prbly for similar reasons JK didn't bring back certain players for the 2006 germany team.
1) we have other players that need to be brought up. for the 06 germany team this was Bastian, Mertesacker, etc.
2) JK and LD prbly don't like each other. LD prbly wasn't on board as much as JK would want him to be with the "revolution" or whatever you want to call it. JK wanted no other voices than his own so peace. Its all speculation on my part but there has to be some sort of dislike or distrust there.
This happens a lot in sports that a good player gets cut or traded for reasons that have nothing to do with play on the field or salary cap reasons.
EDIT: meant to add the "LD might not have wanted to play second fiddle" argument and could have been a second voice in that regard
This post was edited on 6/30/14 at 11:11 am
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:09 am to petar
That is a shite ton of conjecture that you are throwing out to rationalize a decision.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:14 am to Broski
quote:
That is a shite ton of conjecture that you are throwing out to rationalize a decision.
Is it though?
JK has wanted to change things and bring the furture of USMNT team.
So someone has to go. Why not let the older, dissident voice on the bench go?
If he is going to bitch about practices, playing time, or the way the team is being handled, its not worth bringing him.
IE, The headache that LD brought was not worth the reward he would give 15-20 minutes every game.
Granted this is all speculation on my part, but i think its more close to the truth than prbly any other speculation brought up.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:15 am to petar
quote:
1) we have other players that need to be brought up. for the 06 germany team this was Bastian, Mertesacker, etc.
I just wish we had Germany 2006 options to call up instead.
I think I understand where Jurgen sees value in almost every questionable choice. I just do not agree with them.
Yedlin - pacey late sub. This worked out better than anyone imagined.
Davis - silver bullet to Germany or something. I guess Jurgen thinks Germany is very susceptible to set pieces and saw it as our best way to score. It failed mightily, but I guess that was his logic.
Wondo - semi-technical late game poacher. I liked having Wondo on the team, but it makes no sense when we use a lone striker and do not bring a back up striker.
Green - guarantees he plays for the US. frick that. He signed his one-time switch back in March.
quote:
This happens a lot in sports that a good player gets cut or traded for reasons that have nothing to do with play on the field or salary cap reasons.
Yeah, and it fricking sucks. It is a shame that the best resume in his US history is likely wiped out due to a personal dislike between the coach and player at the possible detriment of the team.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:16 am to petar
quote:
So someone has to go. Why not let the older, dissident voice on the bench go?
So he brings in older guys?
quote:
If he is going to bitch about practices, playing time, or the way the team is being handled, its not worth bringing him.
When did he "bitch"?
quote:
The headache that LD brought was not worth the reward he would give 15-20 minutes every game.
What headache?
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:18 am to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
It was a bad decision regardless.
So you know more than Jurgen and he can never win in your eyes? Cool.
So even if he won the Cup, it'll be "Doesn't matter, he still should have brought Donovan. Pointless Cup win."
Kind of a sad way to look at it, but ok, good talk.
BTW, so you know where I am. I don't think it's about a right or wrong decision. It's about making the best decision you can at the time. And I want to think Jurgen did that. There are a ton of things to consider, especially with a player as longstanding as Donovan.
Maybe bringing another old player that may have been superfluous would not have proved that he was thinking young to all those players we are looking to entice to play for the Stars and Stripes. You have to admit that we played old for a long time. Maybe he knew he would bench him and barring an injury, that would have caused problems. Maybe Donovan said something to Jurgen in private that you or I don't know about that affected his standing. Maybe he needed to put the leadership somewhere else on the team.
Fact of the matter is that as much information as you think you may have, you don't have it all. You don't know what Donovan was thinking before the cup, you don't know what Jurgen was thinking. Therefore, you either think Jurgen is trying to make the best decisions to win the cup or you don't.
If you don't, then I don't know what to tell you. If you do, and this maybe was a small mistake, we should still not be debating it because we made it out of the group of death. We saw teams with easier groups like Italy, fail.
I mean before the cup, what were our chances of getting out of that particular group? That should tell you whether or not Jurgen made at least a competent decision.
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