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Message
re: SBI: Donovan admits to initial bitterness towards USMNT
Posted on 6/30/14 at 5:00 pm to petar
Posted on 6/30/14 at 5:00 pm to petar
I suppose that I just subscribe to the theory that if you want to play your best in a soccer tournament that you should probably bring your best soccer players. If you guys have a different philosophy, then that's probably the crux of our disagreement.
I can't think of a single good reason why it's a good idea to bring an obviously inferior player over someone who does almost everything better. Not one.
And I don't believe Jurgen would do that either, which leaves us looking elsewhere for answers. So if it was something personal, why are we so quick to assume that it's Donovan doing something completely uncharacteristic of his 12+ year career with the USMNT and not Jurgen?
His son's tweet at the very least suggested to some bad blood between them. You have to admit that, right?
If this is just a case of blindly supporting the coach because that's what you as a fan are inclined to do, then fine.
I am able to separate my criticisms of this decision from my fanhood of the team.
As for what could convince me that this was the right call? I don't know. The chances of that took a big hit when Brad Davis was exposed as a huge liability against Germany, when we couldn't hold the ball against Ghana, etc.
Donovan could have already helped us.
I can't think of a single good reason why it's a good idea to bring an obviously inferior player over someone who does almost everything better. Not one.
And I don't believe Jurgen would do that either, which leaves us looking elsewhere for answers. So if it was something personal, why are we so quick to assume that it's Donovan doing something completely uncharacteristic of his 12+ year career with the USMNT and not Jurgen?
His son's tweet at the very least suggested to some bad blood between them. You have to admit that, right?
If this is just a case of blindly supporting the coach because that's what you as a fan are inclined to do, then fine.
I am able to separate my criticisms of this decision from my fanhood of the team.
As for what could convince me that this was the right call? I don't know. The chances of that took a big hit when Brad Davis was exposed as a huge liability against Germany, when we couldn't hold the ball against Ghana, etc.
Donovan could have already helped us.
This post was edited on 6/30/14 at 5:01 pm
2
Posted on 6/30/14 at 5:52 pm to St Augustine
quote:
Should've mixed in a couple more salads over the last year.
Yep.
Taking a long hiatus and getting fat didn't help him at all.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 6:16 pm to FAF
I'm not wading into this rehash but four months is not a "long hiatus" and after his break he came back and performed at a high level for this team.
And this picture was taken May 15th - 7 days before he was cut.
That's not "fat". And anyone who saw the beep test on the "Inside" series knows that there is no way someone who is out of shape could do that well, much less come in 3rd out of 30 other athletes, many who are younger than him.
Argue about tactical reasons, chemistry reasons, personal reasons, etc.
But get out with the hiatus excuse because Timmy Chandler. And get out with the "old" excuse because Brad Davis. And with the out of shape excuse because that's been disproven by actual evidence.
And this picture was taken May 15th - 7 days before he was cut.
That's not "fat". And anyone who saw the beep test on the "Inside" series knows that there is no way someone who is out of shape could do that well, much less come in 3rd out of 30 other athletes, many who are younger than him.
Argue about tactical reasons, chemistry reasons, personal reasons, etc.
But get out with the hiatus excuse because Timmy Chandler. And get out with the "old" excuse because Brad Davis. And with the out of shape excuse because that's been disproven by actual evidence.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 6:18 pm to BamaChick
quote:
And this picture was taken May 15th - 7 days before he was cut.
He is definitely heavier than he was before his break.
The hiatus fricked him because Klinsmann was trying to build chemistry between his potential team and having Landon take off for so long wasn't beneficial towards it.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 6:19 pm to FAF
quote:
Yep.
Taking a long hiatus and getting fat didn't help him at all.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 6:29 pm to FAF
quote:
The hiatus fricked him because Klinsmann was trying to build chemistry between his potential team and having Landon take off for so long wasn't beneficial towards it.
Then explain Timmy Chandler and Julian Green.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 6:31 pm to FAF
Chandler did not earn a cap for 15 months.
The chemistry is a bit of a crazy argument with Yedlin, Green, and Chandler on the squad. We barely had any games where our top options played together due to injury, sabbatical, etc.
The chemistry is a bit of a crazy argument with Yedlin, Green, and Chandler on the squad. We barely had any games where our top options played together due to injury, sabbatical, etc.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 7:23 pm to NawlinsTiger9
quote:
As for what could convince me that this was the right call? I don't know. The chances of that took a big hit when Brad Davis was exposed as a huge liability against Germany, when we couldn't hold the ball against Ghana, etc.
Not at least TRYING Jarrett Lee for at least one series in the BCS Championship game will never be the right decision - no matter how much I love LSU and support Les Miles. Time and reflection hasn't changed that.
I don't understand how people can't make this distinction.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 7:48 pm to pvilleguru
quote:
I'm ok with it being a personal reason. I don't want anyone on the team that isn't 100% behind Jurgen or not on the same page as him. Right now, I believe that all 23 of those guys are on the same page.
I'm okay with it being personal as well. As I said upthread if Jurgen came out in early 2013 and said "Landon's a quitter and I don't want quitters" this probably wouldn't really be a discussion.
Jurgen probably lost all respect for Donovan and thought that Landon wouldn't swallow the pill and take Gold Cup/B team duty, especially after returning to MLS in March 2013 and not being called in for those qualifiers. And even if he did - he probably thought he would play poorly. But he did take the Gold Cup spot, and he excelled.
This probably painted Jurgen into a corner - because Landon played in the next qualifier against Mexico (and excelled there, too.) Jurgen didn't want Landon on the team at all, so he benched him for the Mexico game. Landon played average (at best) in his thirty minutes, so Jurgen pounced. He brought him in as part of the 30 (because he HAD to - people would know it was personal if he didn't), saw that Landon was fit and ready (as he had been the previous summer), and made the cuts before it could be shown on national TV against Azerbaijan.
So, instead of Jurgen saying "we don't want quitters" we get rumblings of poor fitness (third in the beep test - so that's out), other players being ahead of him (we've seen Davis and Green play - so that's out), Landon not being a forward (but Yedlin is a midfielder, apparently - so that's out) and rumblings that Landon could be or would be a bad teammate (which every journalist with a GOOD connection to the team - Dunseth, Stone, Twellman, Lalas) they all found preposterous. And all of that has been perpetuated by people carrying the water for Klinsmann and repeating it like it's gospel.
So this is what we're left with - guessing WTF really happened. I suppose one day a book will be written and we'll find out.
But for now, for today - this team absolutely HAS gotten results. But all of the things that made this tournament a knife edge so far - lack of a counterattack, shitty set pieces, poor decision making on breakaways, lack of connection between forwards and midfield - all of those things are not conjecture. They're out there for all to see. Those things are a problem at any time when they disappear. But when you leave a guy at home that EXCELS at all of those things, has for 10+ years, and STILL DOES today - you invite criticism. And it's well earned.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 8:24 pm to Sheep
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:15 pm to NawlinsTiger9
quote:
I can't think of a single good reason why it's a good idea to bring an obviously inferior player over someone who does almost everything better. Not one.
lol not one? not ever?
No matter the situation?
So T.O. was at the eagles for more than a year?
Aaron Brooks should have stayed on the roster as a back up for multiple seasons as a back up? How about Joe horn? seymour or moss or Samual or about 6 other players for the pats? Tevez should have been called up for Argentina? Ronaldinho for 06 brazil? Nasri for France? Kaka for brazil this year? Or Pato, benzema, Ruud, seedorf, toni, adriano, or nasri again, etc. for thier repective teams in 2010? This list could go on forever. But you disagree with every single one of these decisions?
That is an obviously a dishonest statement. Good players (players better than thier replacments) have been left off all the time. 06 germany is another example by this same coach. it worked out just fine for them.
quote:
So if it was something personal, why are we so quick to assume that it's Donovan doing something completely uncharacteristic of his 12+ year career with the USMNT and not Jurgen?
I take into consideration that it takes two to tango. I have admitted that it was prbly personal but i would rather to have one chief and 23 indians. not one chief and someone who wants to be chief and 22 indians. Jk and Ld have had thier disagreements from the start. Maybe you generally agree with players in this regard, but if you don't fall into line then frick you peace. Moyes comes to mind as a manager who did not subscribe to this policy. And it can ruin a team.
quote:
I am able to separate my criticisms of this decision from my fanhood of the team.
I disagree. Blind support for LD is not separating fandom from reality.
quote:
As for what could convince me that this was the right call?
easy answer nothing... not even a world cup or beating belgium and argentina back to back would suffice.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:18 pm to petar
It is a well known fact that he did not show up in his best form or shape?
Do yall want a player who is not taking getting prepared for a World Cup seriously? How much more motivation do you need? its the world cup...
Do yall want a player who is not taking getting prepared for a World Cup seriously? How much more motivation do you need? its the world cup...
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:27 pm to petar
quote:
It is a well known fact that he did not show up in his best form or shape?
No it isn't.
quote:
Do yall want a player who is not taking getting prepared for a World Cup seriously?
When did he not take getting ready for the World Cup seriously?
Where are you pulling this from?
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:48 pm to Broski
Well he has stated that he was not in his best shape coming in.
He was having his worst form in the mls prior to him being left off.
Y'all act like this was from right field he was left off. There were plenty of articles from a variety of sources that suggested this prior
He was having his worst form in the mls prior to him being left off.
Y'all act like this was from right field he was left off. There were plenty of articles from a variety of sources that suggested this prior
Posted on 6/30/14 at 10:56 pm to petar
quote:
So T.O. was at the eagles for more than a year?
Aaron Brooks should have stayed on the roster as a back up for multiple seasons as a back up? How about Joe horn? seymour or moss or Samual or about 6 other players for the pats? Tevez should have been called up for Argentina? Ronaldinho for 06 brazil? Nasri for France? Kaka for brazil this year? Or Pato, benzema, Ruud, seedorf, toni, adriano, or nasri again, etc. for thier repective teams in 2010? This list could go on forever. But you disagree with every single one of these decisions?
I'm not being rude, I just honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.
In a game of soccer, I think the best players should be on our team. I feel that gives us the best chance to play at our peak level and succeed. I don't feel that this theory is in any way dishonest or ridiculous.
If you are of the opinion that Brad Davis gives us a better chance to win games than Landon Donovan, then that's fine. You have had to disagree with statistics, past and current performance, coaches, teammates and your own fricking eyeballs to come to that conclusion, but so be it.
quote:
I disagree. Blind support for LD is not separating fandom from reality.
Except it's not blind. It's based in fact. You admitted that Jurgen's decision was probably personal - I'm just not a fan of a personal squabble keeping our team from having its best 23.
That doesn't mean I haven't been cheering my arse off for the USA and Klinsmann, but I'm not gonna stick my head in the sand and act like this was the right decision, either.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:04 pm to NawlinsTiger9
Perhaps J.K. did this because he has tactical reasons AND he wants to stamp his authority on the USMNT apparat. for the next four years. If he'll leave Donovan home from the World Cup in the group of death, he'll cut ANYONE.
Maybe?
Maybe?
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:05 pm to NawlinsTiger9
quote:
I'm not being rude, I just honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here
You had previously said that you never ever leave off the best players in any sport but that's not the case as that long list illustrated
teams sometimes leave the best players off for off the field issues.
Sometimes there is more to a team than having the best players on it. A LA spurs vs heat this year.
If you want proof of this in the soccer world, see the failed Moyes experiment at United. One cohesive voice is required. If LD had any resentment or showed any disrespect, it was a good decision. We however will never know this but I think it is obvious as there is no reason to leave LD off otherwise and JK is not retarded, wants to win, and has done this before.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:09 pm to petar
This thread has to die at midnight for spiritual, tactical, and all things American reasons.
TIA
TIA
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:11 pm to RedPop4
quote:
Perhaps J.K. did this because he has tactical reasons AND he wants to stamp his authority on the USMNT apparat. for the next four years. If he'll leave Donovan home from the World Cup in the group of death, he'll cut ANYONE.
I'm a novice in tactical knowledge compared to most of the regulars here, but my eyes tell me that Brad Davis over Landon Donovan is in no way shape or form a sound tactical position.
As far as stamping his authority on the team? That's putting himself above the team.
As a player, if I see my coach cutting a better player with more experience and talent for a less talented, less experienced player, I can't say I would find that motivating.
Posted on 6/30/14 at 11:17 pm to BamaChick
That's why I said...
Perhaps, and "If." Just throwing another scenario for consideration.
Perhaps, and "If." Just throwing another scenario for consideration.
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